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Terra

Promotion Voting and Rank Expectations

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If we're on the topic, some of the ranks are a bit redundant. However they do also provide a few more steps to get a gauge of the person while having to spend that extra time in between those ranks. 

 

Doesn't seem to be any difference in console powers from staff Sgt to sergeant major, and wo1 to wo5 (other than 1 extra vote). 

 

At the end of the day, system has been in place for years, works, I'm happy with my ranking and how I've been treated and assessed and everyone seems to be fairly fair when it comes to general evaluations and such. So I don't have too many concerns about current systems

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1 hour ago, Townkill(OD) said:

What can I say, the man has got a point.

 

I'd  Like to posit the idea, a lot if us are just an older class of of gamers. Forums and VoIP changes to those reading here is like changing underwear, just once a month. Sometimes daily.

Nothing like be blown by in ranks by guys who don't host events, run divisions, and revitalize a division. I quit caring about rank when I recognized the pattern.

 

Now your just stuck dealing with my truth be spoken approach, rather then me contributing time and dedication towards divisions. Effort vs reward is non existent in OD these days.

 

Hence why people complain or go back to "the golden age". Where guys putting in the work were rewarded as "leaders" and promoted accordingly. Now All you have to do is login, accept whatever guy you never met selected you as a recruiter, and hang out on teamspeak with your favorite general.

 

This clan has moved towards favoritism at a sickening rate.

 

And yah I could leave and start my own group, but I've been around since the inception of OD. Witnessed the clan wars between OD and DL (where all the originals branched from). Saw the rise and fall of divisions. I stick around because hopefully people get their head out of their ass and appreciate their peers for hard work, rather then just logging in.

 

Ranks mean squat, outside of getting into higher ranked forums. Giving a label to a rank isn't going to change how this clan evolves. The clan will grow in a positive direction, when we start showing appreciation to guys/girls devoting time and management, towards developing new divisions, and introducing new events and ideas.

 

Until then we will rely heavily on ODD2 to mass recruit, and hope some of their recruits branch out into other divisions.

 

Ps mass recruiting the way we currently are is what brought DL to it's knees.

 

The guys who contributed brought you OD.

 

Here's something that should raise an eyebrow

 

We have 394 members.

226 come of D2

 

How long until we've moved enough un warranted members into leadership positions, that we start losing the members doing the leg work.

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If we're on the topic, some of the ranks are a bit redundant. However they do also provide a few more steps to get a gauge of the person while having to spend that extra time in between those ranks. 

 

Doesn't seem to be any difference in console powers from staff Sgt to sergeant major, and wo1 to wo5 (other than 1 extra vote). 

 

At the end of the day, system has been in place for years, works, I'm happy with my ranking and how I've been treated and assessed and everyone seems to be fairly fair when it comes to general evaluations and such. So I don't have too many concerns about current systems

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1 hour ago, SuNSeT said:

Until then we will rely heavily on ODD2 to mass recruit, and hope some of their recruits branch out into other divisions.

 

Ps mass recruiting the way we currently are is what brought DL to it's knees.

 

The guys who contributed brought you OD.

 

Here's something that should raise an eyebrow

 

We have 394 members.

226 come of D2

This is something I'm looking to address during my event proposal / presentation during the Admin meeting on the 25th.  I hope you'll be in attendance, as I feel I have a decent solution, if not possible solution to some of this issue.

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20 hours ago, Mursaat said:

I've been around battle.net for a long time (2001). Look at clans such as Last Warriors which had the exact same layout of OD and the downfall was lack of leadership and rank chasing. Another clan such as clan chaotic carnage cC, in where the agenda of the players fractured and disbanded it with the exact same rank structure layout as OD.

 

Most Clans of that generation of battle.net did use OD scripts, which included the rank structure. Despite that, most of them actually promoted a lot faster than OD does now. From Enlisted to Commander it takes a minimum of 2 years for a member of OD to climb the full ranks, and that is assuming they succeed in all of their promotions going upwards. This is longer than the average lifespan of a Clan during the 2000 - 2009 era of b-net. Setranks and single-person promotions were the norm.

 

It isn't impossible for things to go wrong even with a lengthy process, the process alone doesn't make a Clan entirely immune to risks. Poor leadership, or lack of leadership were definitely big Clan killers back in the day, and that has more to do with other factors. But the more meticulous the process, the more certain risks can be minimized.

 

20 hours ago, Mursaat said:

The thing is that you can still achieve the same or better results in a simplified manner but yet it seems you are afraid of change.

 

I've been the foremost agent of change in OD within the span of years that I've been here. I'm not afraid of change in general, but I am afraid of the change you propose. I believe it would be catastrophic to the Clan.

 

20 hours ago, Mursaat said:

I'm glad you agree that if someone is motivated and dedicated it will show in their achievements but you are basing their motivation on gaining rank as an outcome to be kept "entertained" rather than holding a billet and being motivated for their job well done or be a part of the community. It shouldn't take 9 ranks to figure out someones growth in a gaming community. It actually takes longer to get promotions in a simplified rank structure as well.

 

The effectiveness of positive reinforcement isn't just speculation, it's been a scientific study.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

"Psychologist BF Skinner was a highly influential American psychologist. He held a post at Harvard University from 1958 until his retirement in 1974.

 

Skinner did many studies during his tenure and documented research confirming people would repeat behavior that was immediately reinforced with value. He determined that psychological reinforcement was recognized by people to be of sufficient value to get them to repeat behaviors."

 

"In 1972 Robert and Evelyn Kirkhart did research on the effects of positive reinforcement on children's behavior.

They found that children in classrooms thrived when the ratio of feedback was 5 parts positive feedback to 1 part constructive feedback."

 

"The University of Wisconsin undertook a study of the adult learning process in 1982. They chose to work with bowling teams.

Each team was then shown their respective videos to study, in order to help them improve their performances. The team that studied their strong points on video improved their game by twice as much as the other that studied only their mistakes.

 

Hearing what we did well makes us want to be better, and believe we can be better, and hence we do become better."

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Being without the ranking system doesn't necessarily mean that there won't be people willing to work and help out, some people are dedicated to the community for the sake of the community itself. But they would be a minority compare to the overall populace. The ranking system provides a means of positive reinforcement and progress that motivates a lot of people who wouldn't otherwise be as invested, and helps all those who do become involved in helping the community to want to work harder, and even improve in the process.

There are other forms of positive reinforcements that we could employ, if we took away the ranks, but at that point it becomes much the same thing, you are just removing one form of positive reinforcement for another. The ranks provide a clearly defined form of positive reinforcement that has proven to be very effective at what it does.

 

Other Clans have managed to do pretty well with other methods, our ability to motivate members isn't reserved exclusively to our ranking system. But it does allow us to do it better, and we have to do things better than the other Clans because all the ones I'm aware of are all dead at this point.

 

20 hours ago, Mursaat said:

Didn't you climb the rank structure super fast to where people were triggered? Which is a contradiction to what you are imposing. People wouldn't be as triggered if the rank structure was simplified.

 

I did. And some others in the Clan have earned their rank even faster than I did. For some people it does take the full breadth of all the ranks in order to assess their skill and judgement, or to help them improve sufficiently each step of the way. But others show a particularly strong aptitude right from the start. Our experience as individuals and leaders doesn't begin with OD, I was a General, Commander, and leader of many Clans prior to OD and that experience helped shape me into a very able person even before I became a part of the Clan. I was working alongside Generals even when I was an Enlisted member, and it was apparent to those of power at the time that I was capable and knew what I was doing, so promotions came fairly often because the more I was able to do in the Clan the more the Clan benefited.

 

I won't pretend that sucking up to leadership hasn't had its perks during certain points in OD, and I can't say definitively that it won't have some positive effects in the current day. But I'm pretty confident when I say that it is a lot more minimal nowadays, and with the recent changes we made to put emphasis on rank expectations I think it will become the lowest it's ever been in years prior. What good would it do? We don't do free setranks anymore and everyone in leadership, in addition to the Clan as a whole, gets a vote on you.

Unlike points in the past, sucking up is an ineffective route to power in present day OD. But alongside that your attitude towards people and to the community as a whole counts for a lot more than it used to in the past as well. If, like a certain sunny someone, you spend too much time talking about how much better OD was in the past and how much worse OD leadership is nowadays, then yes you are probably better off forgetting about ranks and focusing on other things.

 

If you want rank and responsibility then you contribute and you earn it. I earned my rank, through a long, challenging, and complicated series of ordeals. And if you did the things I've done for OD, as well as I did them, you'd be a Commander too.

 

On a side note,

If you think removing the rank structure will stop people from getting triggered, then you don't know people very well.

 

 

20 hours ago, Purplez(OD) said:

I know Terra thinks this forum is dead, but it really does serve a purpose.

 

I don't recall saying the forum was dead, on the contrary I think I said it was doing pretty good nowadays. A lot better than when I first started. And I'll be the last person to say the forum doesn't have a purpose, not only is it an effective form of communication and discussion but from an organization and management standpoint the forum is one of the cruxes of the Clan.

 

Besides, without the forum where would I be able to show off my awesome debate skills? The world would never recover from the loss. 30lo281.png

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37 minutes ago, Sarnith said:

This is something I'm looking to address during my event proposal / presentation during the Admin meeting on the 25th.  I hope you'll be in attendance, as I feel I have a decent solution, if not possible solution to some of this issue.

I'd say the chance of me being there is slim to none. I work 12-16 hour days 21 days minimum a month. Fly in fly out. So when you guys host meetings I'm usually still there

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, SuNSeT said:

Nothing like be blown by in ranks by guys who don't host events, run divisions, and revitalize a division. I quit caring about rank when I recognized the pattern.

 

Now your just stuck dealing with my truth be spoken approach, rather then me contributing time and dedication towards divisions. Effort vs reward is non existent in OD these days.

 

Hence why people complain or go back to "the golden age". Where guys putting in the work were rewarded as "leaders" and promoted accordingly. Now All you have to do is login, accept whatever guy you never met selected you as a recruiter, and hang out on teamspeak with your favorite general.

 

This clan has moved towards favoritism at a sickening rate.

 

And yah I could leave and start my own group, but I've been around since the inception of OD. Witnessed the clan wars between OD and DL (where all the originals branched from). Saw the rise and fall of divisions. I stick around because hopefully people get their head out of their ass and appreciate their peers for hard work, rather then just logging in.

 

Ranks mean squat, outside of getting into higher ranked forums. Giving a label to a rank isn't going to change how this clan evolves. The clan will grow in a positive direction, when we start showing appreciation to guys/girls devoting time and management, towards developing new divisions, and introducing new events and ideas.

 

Until then we will rely heavily on ODD2 to mass recruit, and hope some of their recruits branch out into other divisions.

 

Ps mass recruiting the way we currently are is what brought DL to it's knees.

 

The guys who contributed brought you OD.

 

Here's something that should raise an eyebrow

 

We have 394 members.

226 come of D2

 

How long until we've moved enough un warranted members into leadership positions, that we start losing the members doing the leg work.

Some of us see you, and more with the same ailments as you speak of buddy. Thanks for sticking with us, and both bringing people to play with us and to share fun with everyone.

 

I can't do much directly today in your plight, however it is something I put effort into. I want you to know if it's any personal satisfaction, I literally within the last 36 hours shared a post of yours in a forum you cannot see, and advised some to pay more attention to the rank and your wisdom I see and respect, as I did indeed refer to your post from none other then General Sunset(OD). Respect is earned never give, we do give pixels but real rank is a position earned. PS: shit you not I called you general looool.

Edited by Townkill(OD)
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On 23/03/2018 at 12:39 PM, Townkill(OD) said:

Some of us see you, and more with the same ailments as you speak of buddy. Thanks for sticking with us, and both bringing people to play with us and to share fun with everyone.

 

I can't do much directly today in your plight, however it is something I put effort into. I want you to know if it's any personal satisfaction, I literally within the last 36 hours shared a post of yours in a forum you cannot see, and advised some to pay more attention to the rank and your wisdom I see and respect, as I did indeed refer to your post from none other then General Sunset(OD). Respect is earned never give, we do give pixels but real rank is a position earned. PS: shit you not I called you general looool.

Almost feel like we're the last of the Mohicans haha.

 

Appreciate the shout out. Stay classy 

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Great read. IMO, enforcing these standards would weed out those that want rank simply to have rank. 

 

Im still new to the new system, but is there a kind of testimony given by those who are entering the officer tier? A simple “what have I done, etc”

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Applying these standards have helped and hurt.  It makes you do more research with what's available.  If you don't play their game you are only left with what they've posted on the forum, what others say about them in their vote, their medals, etc.  In the absence of any of these other indicators, you either have to vote neutral but still state why you are voting neutral or deny.  It's tough for me to deny or put what I found missing.  I just want everyone to succeed.

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And yet it is in how we handle our failures that truly shape us and define us as a person. You aren't doing them any favors by trying to protect them from those moments where we have to accept when things aren't going to go our way. You will just leave them woefully unprepared for the day when it inevitably doesn't. Tough love is sometimes the most important kind of love.

 

19 hours ago, CoffeeBean(OD) said:

Im still new to the new system, but is there a kind of testimony given by those who are entering the officer tier? A simple “what have I done, etc”

 

There's no official testimony that they are required to give, however potential candidates for Officer ranks often interact pretty frequently with the Division Leaders of their Division, who judge them by the standards they look for in Officers of their Division. In most cases Division Leaders will also notify other Clan leaders during the Admin Meeting about members they are considering for future Officers, so that the rest of us can keep some tabs on their performance and assess them for ourselves.

 

A tier-change promotion to Officer does have some differences that set them aside from regular promotions, other than what I mentioned above. Only an Officer or higher can put up another Officer for promotion (though after they are put up, all members can vote on them). And the amount of points required to succeed in a promotion from MWO5 to 2nd Lieutenant is substantially higher than most other promotions.

 

It can be a challenging milestone to achieve. But it is the ability to overcome that challenge that really demonstrates their worth as Officers, much more than a written testimony would in this case, I feel.

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3 hours ago, Terra said:

It can be a challenging milestone to achieve. But it is the ability to overcome that challenge that really demonstrates their worth as Officers, much more than a written testimony would in this case, I feel.

 

I guess a testimony isn’t really needed. If people don’t know what you did, maybe you didn’t really do anything. Seems the officers in the clan now are head and shoulders above what it used to be, so whatever it is, it’s working

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Oh, you hear that Officers? High praise from a veteran member.

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On 3/31/2018 at 11:05 AM, Purplez(OD) said:

Applying these standards have helped and hurt.  It makes you do more research with what's available.  If you don't play their game you are only left with what they've posted on the forum, what others say about them in their vote, their medals, etc.  In the absence of any of these other indicators, you either have to vote neutral but still state why you are voting neutral or deny.  It's tough for me to deny or put what I found missing.  I just want everyone to succeed.

This is accurate, and properly working. Think fun, yet positive work environment, crossed with please help where best applicable. It's really I think one of the only ways to get as many potential opportunities to those who both seek, and outright earn it.

10 hours ago, CoffeeBean(OD) said:

 

I guess a testimony isn’t really needed. If people don’t know what you did, maybe you didn’t really do anything. Seems the officers in the clan now are head and shoulders above what it used to be, so whatever it is, it’s working

Thanks. I'd like to also say, written testimony is required from Sr Officer's to General. After you've had practice with the tools, we like to keep you accountable most of all to yourself. As you'll know best where you can use work, and best where you did well. Bringing that to us, whilst taking positive feedback and some good constructive criticism is good for anybody looking to put themselves forth as a problem solver for our many varied members with problems, and problems with members.

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On 3/31/2018 at 11:05 AM, Purplez(OD) said:

Applying these standards have helped and hurt.  It makes you do more research with what's available.  If you don't play their game you are only left with what they've posted on the forum, what others say about them in their vote, their medals, etc.  In the absence of any of these other indicators, you either have to vote neutral but still state why you are voting neutral or deny.  It's tough for me to deny or put what I found missing.  I just want everyone to succeed.

Purp, you can always comment in a neutral vote.

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Purp you can also ask people of their division about them

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Thanks I did vote neutral!

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What I am commenting about is in reference to the 200+ Diablo 2 members that make up more than half of the clan which was referenced at some point in this topic. During the days of old in OD we used to have a policy that when we reached a certain member count (I believe it was 300 total members) recruiting would be considered closed, and we wouldn't accept any other members until others were disabled, quit, etc. While the amount of members of the clan or the Diablo 2 division doesn't bother me specifically (I think it's awesome), could putting this old policy back in use (or some form of it based on division) help in any way?

 

-Raged(OD):grin:

 

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2 hours ago, Raged(OD) said:

What I am commenting about is in reference to the 200+ Diablo 2 members that make up more than half of the clan which was referenced at some point in this topic. During the days of old in OD we used to have a policy that when we reached a certain member count (I believe it was 300 total members) recruiting would be considered closed, and we wouldn't accept any other members until others were disabled, quit, etc. While the amount of members of the clan or the Diablo 2 division doesn't bother me specifically (I think it's awesome), could putting this old policy back in use (or some form of it based on division) help in any way?

 

-Raged(OD):grin:

 

I think with D2 being such an old game that closing all recruition for it would be a bad idea. If you take a look at current members DSL's, many of the high ones are d2 members. Because there is soo many, and no minimum requirements for entry, we do get a lot, but also alot of them cycle out quickly. I think d2 is unique in this clan because it provides sheer amount of numbers where the users begin at d2 and potentially branch out to other parts of the clan. But closing it off would be detrimental. I would love to see a requirement of sorts for joining ODD2, but also i think the time to implement that has since passed, as it would be awkward to implement nowadays as there is not many clans anymore, no competition, and would highly restrict our accessibility. At a certain point too, east has only so many players, and the ones interested in joining have had exposure to the clan anyways for over a decade. At a certain point i think recruiting for ODD2 will organically taper off on its own.

 

If Diablo 2 gets a remaster though, oh baby jesus OD better play the cards right and get on that shit quick.

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4 minutes ago, Disco said:

I think with D2 being such an old game that closing all recruition for it would be a bad idea. If you take a look at current members DSL's, many of the high ones are d2 members. Because there is soo many, and no minimum requirements for entry, we do get a lot, but also alot of them cycle out quickly. I think d2 is unique in this clan because it provides sheer amount of numbers where the users begin at d2 and potentially branch out to other parts of the clan. But closing it off would be detrimental. I would love to see a requirement of sorts for joining ODD2, but also i think the time to implement that has since passed, as it would be awkward to implement nowadays as there is not many clans anymore, no competition, and would highly restrict our accessibility. At a certain point too, east has only so many players, and the ones interested in joining have had exposure to the clan anyways for over a decade. At a certain point i think recruiting for ODD2 will organically taper off on its own.

 

If Diablo 2 gets a remaster though, oh baby jesus OD better play the cards right and get on that shit quick.

I agree! Like I said, I think it's awesome how much ODD2 has grown over the years. I only brought up this old policy to throw it out there, and see what other people thought about it. :)

 

-Raged(OD):grin:

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Times were pretty different back then. Large amounts of members brought a much more palpable sense of spam and immature fighting, the potential for "spies" from other Clans who wanted to mess up your stuff and then flood or load your channels. More than that, however, I think we are much more well-adapted to handle a large, diverse populace of members now. Members of different Divisions and ranks are represented in Admin Meetings, which went from originally just being Generals, to being Generals and Officers, to being Generals and Officers and Division Leaders, to being pretty much everyone who is invited or has a distinct reason for participating. The Rules Committee was formed which originally included an equal number of members from all ranks. Setranks became more strictly regulated, leadership has become more transparent, and the Clan as a whole has a much greater say in the promotions and advancement of every individual General.

This has all come with its own set of challenges, but what it has allowed us to do is manage the interests and needs of our members in ways that no previous generations of OD were capable of, and most of our key problems of today aren't a result of trying to manage more people than we can handle, but rather it is more about trying to find that balance of flexibility against the somewhat more bureaucratic nature our processes have ended up becoming, as well as being able to better filter out the massive amounts of interests, opinions, and requests from our members and separating the good and needed ideas from those that aren't so needed. Therefore closing recruitment wouldn't really change our situation, we would still have the same problems that we struggle with daily.

 

The heavy ratio of D2 members compare to the rest of the Clan has certainly had some noticeable effects as well, and in some aspects of the Clan does give them a leg up from other Divisions. But if you've ever seen the amount of daily disputes, trolling, and member management they have to deal with as a result of that large population, I think one would say it is a pretty fair trade-off in the end. Everyone can easily see the multitude of votes they can get in promotions and Award ceremonies, but not everyone can see the day-to-day hassles of their Division, so it is easy to mistake what they have earned as freebies handed to them on a silver platter when in actuality they work pretty hard to make sure the Division is held together with all those members. Having so many generous members willing to pitch in and help host events and games certainly helps with that too, and in that regard they are lucky to have them.

 

So, rather than closing recruitment I think it is just more a matter of continuing to adapt and refine the way things are to better accommodate the people of the community. There are always things that could be better, and there is always room for improvement. The improvements of the past are what allow us to do what we do today, and as we continue to improve upon the flaws and systems of today, there is no telling what we'll be able to do in the future to come.

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