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Sarnith

The Journey to Antorus Heroic

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So we've full cleared Normal Antorus - What about heroic?  Surely we're not done yet, I know I'm not.

 

As it stands, we need to all get better at mechanics on fights if we want to step into Heroic - we get away with sloppy mechanics on normal because we out gear it as a raid -- By quite the margin no less

 

For heroic, 1.2-1.5 mil DPS sustained is what we'll need to hammer these bosses down.  But that's assuming we do Mechanics properly with as few people messing them up as possible.  With the gear our DPS have - it's certainly doable, so lets make it happen.

 

Our tanks are easily geared enough for Heroic content, and both myself and Aleximonk are adequately geared for a majority of the fights, with Triny's Holy Paladin being more than ready.

 

Bottom line is we all need to step up in raid if we want to do something more than just normal.  And if you're someone who refuses to learn mechanics, or just plain refuse to do them - why are you making the conscious decision to negatively impact the raid team and division?

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I would love to do this, I need time to get back into raiding, and get properly geared up.  I think my ilvl is currently lacking greatly, at around 920, any suggestions on how that would be best achieved?

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LFR for antorus and run antorus normal.  Raid Finder gear that titanforges will still be good,  and if you need your 4 set for tier even raid finder pieces normal rolled can be good place holders.

 

Also mythic+'s!

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So we did some heroic tonight - got 3 bosses down - So first off, yay us - progression.  

 

Secondly though, - The Eonar kill was dumb luck at best... she had 3% life left and it doesn't get much closer.  The most glaring issue we had other than the groups not going where they should be [this includes guildies not just the pugs], is most definitely our DPS.  Things stayed alive way to long, and we had plenty of classes with short down time burst windows.  That being the case we really need to step up our game here if we want to continue to down bosses.

 

I'm currently waiting for logs to be posted to go over them more in depth to see what other issues are at hand, but both our healers and tanks are either on par or outgear the content we're currently at.

 

To break this down further, @Triny(OD)'s Holy Paladin outgears most of the heroic content until the later wings,  Aleximonk [I don't actually know his OD Account] is on par for the content, and I'm nearly on par for heroic content as well.  Our Tanks Moon and Thuglife, are both more than adequately geared for the content we're at.  This leaves our DPS. 

 

The majority of our raid is near or around 950 equipped, meaning that there should be no gear related issue causing the DPS loss.  With that in mind, the next questions are now  Rotation problems?  Wrong Talent Choices for the encounter?  Not timing your damage cooldowns properly to take advantage of your burst windows?  Not keeping your buffs up as much as possible to increase your damage?  Failing at performing mechanics correctly causing more issues listed above?  

 

So far we haven't had people die because all the healers went "oom", we haven't had wipes because tanks were crushed to a lack of gear either.  I'm not saying the Healers and Tanks are performing perfectly, but they are doing their jobs - this time the DPS shoulders the burden, so lets step it up.

Edited by Sarnith

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So I looked over the logs once they were posted, and I began taking a look over at the areas "Rankings" and "Problems".  Most people look at the Summary and that's it.  I'm going to be highlighting several things those who do that would have missed.

 

First, the Rankings section...

 

If you look at the ilvl % on the far right, you'll see how you compare to other classes of your spec within your ilvl bracket, of a similar raid size, and a similar kill time for the boss.  I'm posting these to help highlight the issues I previously mentioned above.  Ideally we'd want all our DPS in the "blue" that is to say, above 50th percentile.  Or at least all pulling 1.5 mil or better DPS sustained [some fights you obviously can't the entire time due to mechanics - such as eonar].  But it still should be the goal.

 

If you're in the grey, or are a low green [below 30th], try to find out what others of your class and spec are doing that you may not be.  You'd be surprised how sometimes changing the order of one ability in your rotation can make all the difference in the world.

 

Heroic Garothi

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/kaJyxX2PVF4bwC7L#view=rankings&fight=3

 

Heroic Puppies

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/kaJyxX2PVF4bwC7L#view=rankings&fight=5

 

Heroic Eonar

Warcraft logs keeps having "unexpected handling errors" when I switch the view to rankings,so I don't have this link.

 

Also, lets take a look at the Problems Section of the logs on each of these fights.

 

Heroic Garothi

We had a DPS not using a pre pot [using a potion just before the pull so you can use a second during the fight].  This is a big deal because having the 2nd potion during the next burst phase adds a lot of damage to your rotation - Especially when coupled with cooldown use.

 

In terms of Avoidable Damage, we had 1 person die to something completely avoidable - It shouldn't have ever hit them.  We need to focus on being aware of what is going on around us, not just what abilities were casting.

 

Also, not a single health potion / tonic was used during the fight.  If you drop low [sub 50%] pop the potion - it's better than dying.

 

Heroic Puppies

We had 2 DPS not using a 2nd potion in the fight.  The more people who don't do this, the more it hurts us as a raid.  It sounds dumb, but an entire raid pre potting and using a 2nd potion is averaged to be around 5% of the bosses health in damage.  In other words, if we all pre pot and use a 2nd potion, we'll smack off 5% of the bosses health we wouldn't otherwise.

 

In terms of Avoidable Damage, we had a lot of it - so there's plenty to improve on here.  One of the mechanics is a frontal cone - but since this only hit a pug, good job ^^.   We had a DPS take damage from Enflamed, meaning people didn't properly spread out.  It damages raid members nearby the debuffed player, so if you get it, get away from people.  If you see someone who has it, get away from them.  Molten Flare is the small swirly that the fire hits shortly after - sometimes RNG drops it when we're trying to stack for the debuff that creates the purple circle and it sucks.  But we still need to be better about it, If it hit you, keep an eye out and don't let it.  You can see the circles well before the fire lands, so move.

 

Again, people need to use health potions / tonics.  A lot of damage goes out on this fight, so use one.

 

Heroic Eonar

We had a few DPS using only 1 potion - again.  And what's worse - we had 2 who didn't use a single one!  C'mon guys, can't let that happen.  Sure, it's eonar, there's downtime - use a prolonged power it lasts awhile.

 

Avoidable Damage.... lets break it down.

 

Rain of Fel - The green circle... we need to stay away from each other when we have it.  It's adding up fast, to fast in some cases.

 

Fel Wake - It's green lava looking stuff on the ground.  Don't stand in it... and don't STAY standing in it for some of you O_o

 

Fel Swipe - Basically the purifiers do a cleave - I'm not sure why anyone is getting hit by this...the tanks pick them up just fine.  So why are you in their face?  If you're a melee you risk your key abilities being parried, and if you're a caster, why are you in their face anyways?

 

--->  Essence of Eonar  <---  This is the boss were trying to protect, damage she takes is avoidable - cause we're supposed to be killing it.  We took over 7 minutes on this fight, and she only had 3% HP left when we "won".  This was way to long for many reasons, and way to close to a failure for the same.  We had DPS not only not doing enough damage, but also running all over Hells half acre instead of where the Raid Leader told people to go.  It was put out in a raid warning format [In the center of your screen and it even looks bigger] multiple times, not even including the numerous times it was said in Teamspeak.  And it wasn't just the pugs who ran off either.  We can't have this happen guys, if the RL makes a call - we follow it.  We adjust the plan if needed, but if we're not going to listen to RL we're reducing ourselves to a bunch of mindless pugs.

 

Not to beat a dead horse here but...nobody using healing tonics / potions... C'mon guys - there are numerous times where you can LoS [line of sight] one of the Healers and we can't heal you until we regain that lost line of sight.  So you should be popping a healing potion or tonic here.

  

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well i have to play devil's advocate lol, i remember someone saying that this was a casual raiding guild that maby does heroic sometimes. i understand the need for structure and rules to a point but some of the things being said here sound like an fanatical end-game raid guild that only cares about doing mythic and if you can't help them achieve that then you're done. i also have notice some guildies not where they're suppose to be during some of the fights, however, as long as we down the boss and seriously 3%... who cares, a win is a win.

now speaking personally of my toon, i'm not able to just change my talent choices on a whim to better suit a particular boss fight, i use a macro that handles everything in my rotation and changing anything would make it stop working, no sry i don't use gnome-sequencer, i tried it but couldn't get it to work so i have to make my macro work the old fashion way and it's lame cause 99% of macro now are on gnome-sequencer and wont work without it. the damage that i do, i know is not what i've seen other guildies or pugs do but for the gear i have and the macro i use it's the best i can offer.

i have notice that when i have to stop attacking and move, which now a days is 75% of the fight, my dps drops and doesn't recover, and this irritates me immensely to the point that i think at times i might have to stop raiding. also not everyone is filthy rich with in-game currency and acquiring all those pots and flasks and everything else might be difficult, i've always just got that stuff from the guild i was in at the time mostly but this guild has made the comment that those things cost to make and that they just can't give them all the time so i've stopped asking after a few times of doing so to not cause a problem, usually the guild would have designated members to gather the mats needed for the raid team as well as accept donations.

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There's nothing fanatical sounding at all... using potions is kinda common sense... As for doing mechanics right to make it easier for everyone... I'm not sure how that's "end game" sounding... let alone mythic.  

 

Scraping by might work for you but it doesn't for everyone, and i put out information to help everyone get better.  All I can do is put the information out and make it readily available, I can't make you care enough about the other members in the raid to actually do it.

 

You don't need to be some hardcore no life to do well in a raid, and my character is pretty darn poor in terms of gold on stormrage.  I'm able to afford flasks, food, and potions so I don't see how anyone else could possibly come up with an excuse when flasks and food are provided each night .   So you literally only need to get yourself potions.  And to swap talents for fights, we have tomes available and they're super cheap on the auction house if nobody is on. 

 

Instead of relying on a macro to do abilities for you practice your rotation and actually learn it.  You'll recover from movement easier and a lot more often.  

 

The biggest problem with being ok with barely scraping by for us as a division is that nobody wants to join a raid team that barely manages to clear content they outgear.  The decisions people are making to just not care enough to properly learn their rotations, or classes as a whole is not a "fanatical end game" related issue,  it's an issue of selfishness that's hurting us as a division and as a raid team.

Edited by Sarnith

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If Sarnith continues to break things down, some of us see this and will try to work on what we need to, its meant for us to grow as a group.  Really it is not meant in a negative way, it's meant to help, and i appreciate Sarnith taking the time to break down the logs, and at least try to help, in any group there are always things we can improve upon.

 

Not all of us have the time to look at the logs in depth, this break down of problems that could make us fail is extremely helpful, please dont take it as elitist.

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i just love how that i use a macro so i must not be able to play my class, i can by the way but macro's make it so you don't have to pay attention to what you are hitting.

 

all i'm saying is don't expect everyone to play at the same level

 

 

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Are we having a money problem in the guild triny

 

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2 hours ago, Pillywínks(OD) said:

i just love how that i use a macro so i must not be able to play my class, i can by the way but macro's make it so you don't have to pay attention to what you are hitting.

 

all i'm saying is don't expect everyone to play at the same level

 

 

First of all - lol.  You're not using that macro because you know what you're doing - you're using it because you don't and you need a crutch.  If you knew your rotation properly, you would be able to recover better from movement - druids have tons of mobility that other casters do not, and because of this they do not suffer nearly the same losses in damage.

 

You don't use a macro to not pay attention to what you're hitting - if you just know your keybindings you can accomplish that very thing.  Macro's are used to align certain abilities to be used at the exact same time so you don't lose one or more benefits from having said abilities going off at the correct times.  An example of this is the Fury Warrior macro'ing Battle Cry to BloodBath.  The gains are very high from keeping these macro'd - where as the loss is massive by losing even 1 second.  

 

Nobody is expecting you to go pro - we just expect you to pull your weight.  Instead of adjusting to the situation, you continue to hit your macro which is causing you more harm than good.  Players who utilize a one button macro [Ret paladins have an addon purely dedicated to this amusingly enough] for their entire rotation do it because they don't understand how to do their rotations properly.  In many cases their isn't a rotation, but a priority list for your abilities.

 

You've already shown that you won't bother to stop using your macro - and instead would rather hamper the raids progress. 

 

TLDR:  Don't try to use macro's as an excuse for laziness.  At least own up to it.  And I'll be honest here, you're entire post is practically a wall of text to support the laziness you exhibit... others are really pushing themselves to do better - You refusing to try is just insulting to their effort.  Below you'll find what you sim at - while actually doing the DPS you sim at is incredibly difficult, keeping near it won't be - and this is just some proof that your macro is hurting you more than helping.

 

What you're DPS should be near if you did know what you were doing

 

2 hours ago, ChrisSpeck(OD) said:

Are we having a money problem in the guild triny

 

 

The guild has tons of gold - I'm not sure where Pilly got the idea we can't afford to hand out food and flasks... I even hear it get said in TS every raid if anyone needs potions or tomes for changing talents.

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7 minutes ago, Sarnith said:

First of all - lol.  You're not using that macro because you know what you're doing - you're using it because you don't and you need a crutch.  If you knew your rotation properly, you would be able to recover better from movement - druids have tons of mobility that other casters do not, and because of this they do not suffer nearly the same losses in damage.

 

You don't use a macro to not pay attention to what you're hitting - if you just know your keybindings you can accomplish that very thing.  Macro's are used to align certain abilities to be used at the exact same time so you don't lose one or more benefits from having said abilities going off at the correct times.  An example of this is the Fury Warrior macro'ing Battle Cry to BloodBath.  The gains are very high from keeping these macro'd - where as the loss is massive by losing even 1 second.  

 

Nobody is expecting you to go pro - we just expect you to pull your weight.  Instead of adjusting to the situation, you continue to hit your macro which is causing you more harm than good.  Players who utilize a one button macro [Ret paladins have an addon purely dedicated to this amusingly enough] for their entire rotation do it because they don't understand how to do their rotations properly.  In many cases their isn't a rotation, but a priority list for your abilities.

 

You've already shown that you won't bother to stop using your macro - and instead would rather hamper the raids progress. 

 

TLDR:  Don't try to use macro's as an excuse for laziness.  At least own up to it.  And I'll be honest here, you're entire post is practically a wall of text to support the laziness you exhibit... others are really pushing themselves to do better - You refusing to try is just insulting to their effort.  Below you'll find what you sim at - while actually doing the DPS you sim at is incredibly difficult, keeping near it won't be - and this is just some proof that your macro is hurting you more than helping.

 

What you're DPS should be near if you did know what you were doing

 

 

The guild has tons of gold - I'm not sure where Pilly got the idea we can't afford to hand out food and flasks... I even hear it get said in TS every raid if anyone needs potions or tomes for changing talents.

Firstly keep the topic generic or group based dont go on him in a public setting i kinda agree to the easier way and macroong bc for me at least anymore than a hand full of hot keys and i cant even close to handle it

Second i thought i was about to have to come back and stnd in the young auction house for triny

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well thank you Sarnith for calling me an idiot cause i don't play like you, lets see, who else says things like that... that would be a fanatic end-game player and you know what you can stick it hard as well, cause i'm done playing with you!, people like you ruin the game for others

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2 hours ago, Pillywínks(OD) said:

well thank you Sarnith for calling me an idiot cause i don't play like you, lets see, who else says things like that... that would be a fanatic end-game player and you know what you can stick it hard as well, cause i'm done playing with you!, people like you ruin the game for others

You decided to bring yourself specifically into this.  You made a point, and I refuted it.  I'm sorry you aren't mature enough to engage in a conversation like this.   And if me saying "Hey, put the group before yourself" is what drove you off you have a lot to learn in life, let alone a video game.  Selfishness will get you nowhere in life, I'm sorry you were never taught that.

 

As for only "fanatic end game players" saying you should pull your weight?  Any pug group you go into that you aren't pulling your weight in will kick you almost immediately.  At least I tried to point out WHY what you were doing wasn't working.

 

In all honesty, you aren't hurting my feelings by saying screw you i'll take my ball and go home - you are only hurting the team with this sentiment.  Instead of choosing to improve you once again choose selfishness.  People like me don't ruin the game for others, people like me go out of there way to try and help others improve at the game.  Team based games that rely on the entire team performing correctly are not for you if you want to keep this mindset.

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calling me an idiot for using a macro was completely inappropriate, cause it was your opinion, not fact

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I proved it with your Sim alone, not mention breaking down how you would improve your reactions by knowing what abilities to use when.  That is fact, not opinion.  It's also proven by a LOT of other boomkins [your spec!] in logs for this raid for normal and heroic!  -- Those are irrefutable facts whether you like it or not.

 

Moreover - if you're going to choose yourself, your laziness -- over the entire team?  Darn right you're an idiot.  I'll even take a moment to use your "people like you" phrase...  People like you, @Pillywínks(OD), ruin the game for others because you refuse to put the team before yourself.  You refuse to learn and improve when the situation requires it - And because of this, you begin to ruin the experience for everyone else.

 

Those aren't opinions, those are facts that you can find rooted in any team based game.  Even in games like League of Legends, Dota, SC2, and even diablo 3 if players aren't performing it can heavily impact the entire group.  In WoW this is even more important for everyone to pull their weight because one person can easily hold 19 others down - or more for those who raid with more than 20 players.

 

I made that original post regarding the log analysis so we can focus on improving as a raid.  Unfortunately, you don't want to do that - you would rather still be the "that guy".  Everyone else is trying, everyone else is taking steps forward.  Why don't you want to?  Why is your way so much more important than the entire group?  Why is your macro so much more important than learning your rotation so you can better react to situations?

 

I guess the real question at this point is just this... Why don't you care about anyone but yourself?

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This topic was meant to inform and help members grow it was not to be perceived as personal and I have spoken with @Sarnith and advised him to keep it going in the direction it was intended for and avoid being drawn into an argument. @Pillywínks(OD) I couldn't find you on teamspeak but please refrain from responding to this topic until @Triny(OD) can speak with you more on the matter so we do not cross the line into BM on either side.

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1 minute ago, Dabomb(OD) said:

This topic was meant to inform and help members grow it was not to be perceived as personal and I have spoken with @Sarnith and advised him to keep it going in the direction it was intended for and avoid being drawn into an argument. @Pillywínks(OD) I couldn't find you on teamspeak but please refrain from responding to this topic until @Triny(OD) can speak with you more on the matter so we do not cross the line into BM on either side.

anyway with trinys permission we can remove the few post that are unrealated to the topic and trash can them

 

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Boys, lets keep this discussion on topic, and about improving the guild as a whole, Lets not take things personal.  We do data analyses after each raid, posting it here is solely so we can see where we lack, that is how things improve, and we make progress as a guild.  

 

 

 

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if you guys need a macro 101 class, ill break it down barney style and also save you like 3-4 extra bind slots to open up. i can do 3 in 1 trait macros, offensive and defensive into 1 button (purge/dispell) also arena 1 2 and 3 macros, also focus, assist macros, and even simple macros to include cancel casting and self target or party target 1-5, also include mouse over macro and cast on mouse pointer for ground cast skills. if you see my page of macros on my shaman you would crap your pants. oh and i forgot burst macros.

 

macros are not a clutch and for me it feels like cheating thats how crazy macros are in warcraft. literally the game plays itself and it also saves you from a tab target and a click while 1 macro can target and then cast a spell. saves time on your worst enemy which is the global cooldown.

 

i can also help out people with key bind mapping and layouts to include shift and ctrl keybind mapping and also UNBIND YOUR S KEY IF YOU ARE NOT A TANK!

 

one thing though is keep your addons simple and not clutered, you want to see things happen than have your eyes NOT glued on your party window hp bars. use deadlyboss mod and simple default UI layout and expand mini map and hp bars if you are a healer.

 

here is an example of a simple but complex layout of a UI

RlYoZdH.jpg

 

even though i ate a full clone, my team was under no pressure and i am now on cc diminish, look at my hp bars as a healer so i can easily look at them and then also check my key mapping for shift1-5 and shift q e r f and i also have a mouse with 6 key binds and also shifted those. simple addons i use are sArena, omnibar, recount, and gladiatorLOSA for pvp. for pve addons i highly recommend deadlyboss mod for it helps you with encounters. make it simple but effective so you can see.

 

just doing these steps by just improving your key mapping, macros, and adjusting UI to see things can change the difference from a challenger player to a gladiator player in arena, same goes for raiding and general game play. please take the time to do this guys, it doesnt hurt and once you get the hang of it, the game feels much easier to play and people think you are really good at your class but in reality, you just pressed 1 damn button.

Edited by Mursaat

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On 2/5/2018 at 1:37 PM, Sarnith said:

I proved it with your Sim alone, not mention breaking down how you would improve your reactions by knowing what abilities to use when.  That is fact, not opinion.  It's also proven by a LOT of other boomkins [your spec!] in logs for this raid for normal and heroic!  -- Those are irrefutable facts whether you like it or not.

 

Moreover - if you're going to choose yourself, your laziness -- over the entire team?  Darn right you're an idiot.  I'll even take a moment to use your "people like you" phrase...  People like you, @Pillywínks(OD), ruin the game for others because you refuse to put the team before yourself.  You refuse to learn and improve when the situation requires it - And because of this, you begin to ruin the experience for everyone else.

 

Those aren't opinions, those are facts that you can find rooted in any team based game.  Even in games like League of Legends, Dota, SC2, and even diablo 3 if players aren't performing it can heavily impact the entire group.  In WoW this is even more important for everyone to pull their weight because one person can easily hold 19 others down - or more for those who raid with more than 20 players.

 

I made that original post regarding the log analysis so we can focus on improving as a raid.  Unfortunately, you don't want to do that - you would rather still be the "that guy".  Everyone else is trying, everyone else is taking steps forward.  Why don't you want to?  Why is your way so much more important than the entire group?  Why is your macro so much more important than learning your rotation so you can better react to situations?

 

I guess the real question at this point is just this... Why don't you care about anyone but yourself?

 

As a top 500 world boomkin I can tell you that using a macro makes no sense to me. Your tact also makes as much sense though, you could have handled this much better.

 

@Pillywínks(OD) PM me if you would like some help with understanding boomkin rotation/cooldowns/talents! I have resources available I can give you to help you out too.

 

On 1/30/2018 at 9:18 PM, Sarnith said:

If you're in the grey, or are a low green [below 30th], try to find out what others of your class and spec are doing that you may not be.  You'd be surprised how sometimes changing the order of one ability in your rotation can make all the difference in the world.

 

Make sure to not invest too much into the color of your parse. It has a lot of variance that makes it not entirely a reliable source of data.

 

On 1/30/2018 at 9:18 PM, Sarnith said:

 

--->  Essence of Eonar  <---  This is the boss were trying to protect, damage she takes is avoidable - cause we're supposed to be killing it.  We took over 7 minutes on this fight, and she only had 3% HP left when we "won".  This was way to long for many reasons, and way to close to a failure for the same.  We had DPS not only not doing enough damage, but also running all over Hells half acre instead of where the Raid Leader told people to go.  It was put out in a raid warning format [In the center of your screen and it even looks bigger] multiple times, not even including the numerous times it was said in Teamspeak.  And it wasn't just the pugs who ran off either.  We can't have this happen guys, if the RL makes a call - we follow it.  We adjust the plan if needed, but if we're not going to listen to RL we're reducing ourselves to a bunch of mindless pugs.

 

Can't stress this enough. When we went to re-clear mythic Eonar we wiped because of exactly this. Communication only gets more important on this fight as the difficulty progresses.

 

On 1/22/2018 at 5:00 PM, Sarnith said:

For heroic, 1.2-1.5 mil DPS sustained is what we'll need to hammer these bosses down.  But that's assuming we do Mechanics properly with as few people messing them up as possible.  With the gear our DPS have - it's certainly doable, so lets make it happen.

 

Dps requirement is a bit high here (outside of Coven) but the bolded part is huuuuuge. Mechanics are super unforgiving and now everything that hurt you badly in normal just one shots you.

 

On 1/30/2018 at 9:18 PM, Sarnith said:

We had 2 DPS not using a 2nd potion in the fight.  The more people who don't do this, the more it hurts us as a raid.  It sounds dumb, but an entire raid pre potting and using a 2nd potion is averaged to be around 5% of the bosses health in damage.  In other words, if we all pre pot and use a 2nd potion, we'll smack off 5% of the bosses health we wouldn't otherwise.

 

 

This is super important. 2nd pots are a huge raid dps increase especially when coupled with Lust/Hero.

 

Side note: Because of the size of your raid it is even more paramount that people pull their weight. When you lose someone to poor mechanic management it's a larger hit to the raid with fewer people. This is where Heroic with 10 people can be harder than heroic with 20 people, 1 person loss with 20 is 5% of your raid, 1 with 10 is 10%  meaning that with even flex scaling you're taking a larger hit to the raid because of that one guy that likes to take dirt naps every pull.

 

If anyone is interested in learning how to simulate their character please feel free to PM me, I can walk you through the Simulationcraft software and how to easily import/export data from your game.

 

<3

Edited by Alarics(OD)

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