DarkHelmet

Commanders need to be Evaluated

50 posts in this topic

11 hours ago, Terra said:

It was a bit of an aggressive response, I won't deny that. But the tone of the topic was set as pretty aggressive from the first post. This wasn't a topic created to ask a question or discuss a problem, it was a mandate created for the Commanders, and when it looked like people were starting to rally behind such an idea, I needed to be very direct and very clear that this isn't going to happen simply because some people think we owe it to them.

 

This isn't a question of holding higher ranks accountable or not, there are already methods used to hold higher ranks accountable that we use. This was about the method being proposed that people wanted to use to hold higher ranks accountable, that being making it mandatory to write evaluations every 6 - 12 months. But the only reason that has been provided as to why high admins, specifically Commanders, should do this, was the "I don't know what they do" reason.

 

What is important is that Generals and Commanders fulfill the roles that maintain the integrity of the community, not that they repeatedly explain how they do it. The burden is on the individual who wants to know to take the time to ask and learn the answers to the questions that they have, not for people to provide those answers for them. And as of so far that is what the people of this topic are asking for.

 

As for why DH felt the need to make the topic, that is indeed an excellent question to ask him.

I explained why I made this topic in my OP. I was promoted to WO, told people that they'd regret that happening, and consequently decided to begin my reign of Assholery by putting a foot up some complacent asses because honestly it needed to be done(and no one in the Officer or General ranks appears to have the stones to say/do so and you, Terra, said so yourself that I had some real balls for doing this). As the title states: "Commanders need to be evaluated" implied that I thought the 5-Star Generals(aka Commanders) should be put under review just like every other General and what made my argument for doing so even stronger is that it has been over 2 years(if not longer) for 4 of you with regards to being evaluated(Terra being the lone exception having been promoted to Commander roughly a year ago).

 

While my ultimatum may have been a bit rash, I was in a win-win situation. Either Commanders put themselves up for review(hence I win) or I got demoted back down into the Enlisted ranks for pointing out something rather obvious and a clear loophole in their Evaluation policy(or failure to abide by it if there isn't one). Me being demoted for pointing out the obvious would come across as striking a nerve and would engender sympathy and support from the Community at-large. Furthermore with the possibility of me being demoted to Enlisted being that I could go back to not giving a damn about contributing, it meant I had nothing to lose in doing this. If I was kicked out for doing something like this, eh fine and its your loss. I suppose if there was anything I did wrong was that I did this out in the open for everyone to see and hence violating the cardinal rule of "Creating unnecessary Drama". Yet I believe it was you, Terra, who complained that they didn't have anything to do or there wasn't enough problems/drama to deal with. Well, if you want issues to deal with, I can be your Asshole :devil:

 

I got Ragnorak to post an Evaluation, which is an accomplishment in its own right because the guy doesn't post much and the fact hes now on Discord as a result of this is a positive achievement. You, Terra, have posted an Evaluation, which leaves Aer(who said he'd be doing one), Tris and Badboi. I should mention that another trigger for me doing this was the high DSL that you all seem to have been getting lately and the fact Generals are immune to the site repercussions but will be held against you when put up for review. Yet if you're not up for review, how can this be held against you?

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I'm not going to demote you, I'm going to educate you.

No Commander is going to take a spontaneous outburst on the forum seriously when it is devoid of any substance. Any belief you have that Commanders writing evals now was entirely a result of your post is a false assumption, and although on the outset the coincidental nature of it might make it seem that way, if you took the time to find out the reasons for why each Commander is posting an eval you would find out that there were very different reasons involved or they simply volunteered for reasons of their own.

It is this same lack of determining the truth or looking into information that led to this topic being created in the first place, and I find it rather baffling that even after the strong post that I made you still somehow think it is obvious that Generals and Commanders are complacent.

 

Let's consider it good fortune then that you will have the opportunity to read some Commander evals this time. You ought to read each Commanders evaluation thoroughly so that you can fully appreciate how not-so-complacent each one of us actually is. This evaluation process is going to serve as an enlightening revelation for you, and hopefully for others who were curious, and demonstrate the importance of being informed before deciding in your mind whether something is or isn't the case. And then after the evals things are going to return to how they were before, because there was nothing wrong with how they were or what the Commanders were doing, and ultimately this topic won't have been anything more than a memory of "that time that guy said all those things just because".

 

Or we could try an exercise in finding answers and maybe next time you'll be able to figure them out on your own. Go ahead and ask me how Generals and Commanders are held accountable, if you ask me I will tell you. Careful though, you'll be in serious danger of becoming a wiser and more intelligent person if you do.

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11 hours ago, Terra said:

I'm not going to demote you, I'm going to educate you.

No Commander is going to take a spontaneous outburst on the forum seriously when it is devoid of any substance. Any belief you have that Commanders writing evals now was entirely a result of your post is a false assumption, and although on the outset the coincidental nature of it might make it seem that way, if you took the time to find out the reasons for why each Commander is posting an eval you would find out that there were very different reasons involved or they simply volunteered for reasons of their own.

It is this same lack of determining the truth or looking into information that led to this topic being created in the first place, and I find it rather baffling that even after the strong post that I made you still somehow think it is obvious that Generals and Commanders are complacent.

 

Let's consider it good fortune then that you will have the opportunity to read some Commander evals this time. You ought to read each Commanders evaluation thoroughly so that you can fully appreciate how not-so-complacent each one of us actually is. This evaluation process is going to serve as an enlightening revelation for you, and hopefully for others who were curious, and demonstrate the importance of being informed before deciding in your mind whether something is or isn't the case. And then after the evals things are going to return to how they were before, because there was nothing wrong with how they were or what the Commanders were doing, and ultimately this topic won't have been anything more than a memory of "that time that guy said all those things just because".

 

Or we could try an exercise in finding answers and maybe next time you'll be able to figure them out on your own. Go ahead and ask me how Generals and Commanders are held accountable, if you ask me I will tell you. Careful though, you'll be in serious danger of becoming a wiser and more intelligent person if you do.

i love that over the years your get even more "kindly shitting on your face" responces

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Well, maybe I'm overdoing it a bit. This isn't supposed to be a confrontation.

Let me just lay it out plainly then to avoid prolonging this. The closest this topic came to influencing nominations for evaluations was when Aerineth felt it was better to assuage the concerns some members might have about what Commanders do by simply having Commanders write the evaluations, but he was the only one that did, and his nominations counted for only 1/3rd of the total reasons. For each Commander it went as follows:

 

- Aerineth volunteered to put up an eval

- Badboi volunteered to put up an eval

If either of these two had not volunteered, it was unlikely they would have had to write up an eval.

 

- Tris does not have to write an eval

- I have to write an eval more because of the way I handled a recent disagreement with Tris (of which the harsh manner in which I have been reprimanding people in the higher ranks for missing certain responsibilities was even a contributing factor)

- R.agnarok is the only one that has to write an eval simply because most of the Generals wanted him to provide an update

 

 

As for how Generals and Commanders hold each other accountable, the common belief circulating in this topic is that they have to post an evaluation in order for their performance to be evaluated. But if you stop to think about how the system works a bit you would understand that this is not the case. The Generals Meeting that takes place every 3 months is in itself a performance review. Every person, starting with the Commanders at the top to the Brigadiers at the bottom are mentioned by name one by one down the list, wherein each of us considers how they have been performing at their rank. What do you think compels us to nominate someone to begin with? A person isn't writing an evaluation to be held accountable, they are writing an evaluation because they are already being held accountable, the good things and the bad things that they have done over the past months were judged by their peers and compelled them to request this person's evaluation. In the case of being nominated for bad reasons the evaluation is essentially their last opportunity to explain themselves before administration decides whether their actions warrant consequence.

But on top of that if you ever gain access to the General's board then you'll see plenty enough posts (usually by me) questioning or criticizing Generals and Commanders alike for occasions where they have shirked their responsibility (ironically, it most often revolves around the responsibilities regarding evaluations). You can speak to pretty much any General or Commander and they will corroborate this for you.

 

So there you have it, we can firmly say that higher ranks are held accountable, even Commanders, and the existing methods we have in place are already doing it, there is no compelling reason to add anything else. Again, all of this would have been apparent if you simply stop, look at the system, understand how it works, or asked someone in the higher ranks.

 

If you have questions, then feel free to ask them. But please refrain from any further suggestions of accountability or insinuations of complacency without giving the due process involved in coming to those conclusions fairly, and in an informed manner.

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Pre 2013: Before the evaluation system, Generals made Bi-Monthly reports. Promotions in and within the General ranks were plagued with favoritism. Inactive Generals and Commanders bloated the top ranks, as accountability was almost non-existent. 

 

Now: We use the Admin meeting and Generals meeting for these updates. The evaluation system isn’t a place for updates but rather a tool to promote or demote the highest level of leaders. Rather than a sergeant updating the Squad, it’s a court Marshall. It is as transparent as possible. The system will never be perfect, but I believe it is at its best state.

 

If you were around in 2013 & 2014 DH, you would have seen this revolution. If you were present in the Admin meetings,you would be up to date. I agree with Sarnith that since we took these (unpaid) positions, we should be ready to be evaluated, however, it is our peers that make this decision, and it is not a light one. 

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3 hours ago, Badboi(OD) said:

Pre 2013: Before the evaluation system, Generals made Bi-Monthly reports. Promotions in and within the General ranks were plagued with favoritism. Inactive Generals and Commanders bloated the top ranks, as accountability was almost non-existent. 

 

Now: We use the Admin meeting and Generals meeting for these updates. The evaluation system isn’t a place for updates but rather a tool to promote or demote the highest level of leaders. Rather than a sergeant updating the Squad, it’s a court Marshall. It is as transparent as possible. The system will never be perfect, but I believe it is at its best state.

 

If you were around in 2013 & 2014 DH, you would have seen this revolution. If you were present in the Admin meetings,you would be up to date. I agree with Sarnith that since we took these (unpaid) positions, we should be ready to be evaluated, however, it is our peers that make this decision, and it is not a light one. 

Except that not all of the Commanders and Generals show up at the meetings, so we are still in the dark and not up to date.

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It stands to reason that a lot of members probably aren't going to be aware of what the Generals or Commanders do on a daily basis. But at the same time, it isn't really something you should need to worry about either. It isn't your responsibility to ensure that the higher ranks are doing their job, that is part of our responsibility, and we're pretty thorough with it. If you are concerned about something or someone in particular then there are steps that we can take to address that.

 

Is there something that has you concerned right now? Is there a particular reason for why you feel it is necessary for Generals and Commanders to publicize their actions for you, and to take on the responsibility of assessing them yourself? Or is it more because you just want to know?

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2 hours ago, MelodicRose(OD) said:

Except that not all of the Commanders and Generals show up at the meetings, so we are still in the dark and not up to date.

Believe me it doesn't go unnoticed when a general or commander is absent for meetings, and in most cases the generals or commanders that plan on being absent give notice. But I don't believe I have seen any general or commander that has been absent for more than 1 or more meetings consecutively ( without a damn good reason )  with that being said every person in the administration volunteers their time. Is it more helpful and informative for them to attend the meetings. Yes. But does real life, jobs etc come first? Yes. Usually the reason for them being absent is valid or it would be called upon by the commanders and other generals and this especially applies to generals and commanders. Its a simple fact. 

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31 minutes ago, Terra said:

It isn't your responsibility to ensure that the higher ranks are doing their job

 

That is highly ironic; coming from someone who lead the charge that de-throned the inactive Gens/Commanders as a Non-General.

2 hours ago, MelodicRose(OD) said:

Except that not all of the Commanders and Generals show up at the meetings, so we are still in the dark and not up to date.

 

I agree.

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1 hour ago, Badboi(OD) said:

That is highly ironic; coming from someone who lead the charge that de-throned the inactive Gens/Commanders as a Non-General.

 

Touche, I won't deny that it is an ironic statement coming from me. But the way I did it and the way they are doing it here is very different. Sure, I've called people out, I've called higher ranks out, and as I've said earlier in this topic it can have its moments of success if you do it right. But when I did it, it was after months of talking about the problem with existing Generals and learning about the problems, and what you guys had already done about it up to that point. I did my homework, found the information I needed, and my actions were a result of what I *did* know, not what I didn't know.

 

The responsibility of ensuring Generals and Commanders are doing their job has always been with the higher ranks, those in ranks equal and above them, it was the case back then and it is the case now. The question is whether those responsible for holding them accountable are doing that effectively. As I said to Rose, if there are concerns about something or someone then there are steps that can be taken to address it. But not knowing is not knowing, you can't claim that there is no accountability if you don't know, and in this case the people of the aggressors side didn't know, but were making demands anyway.

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2 hours ago, Terra said:

It stands to reason that a lot of members probably aren't going to be aware of what the Generals or Commanders do on a daily basis. But at the same time, it isn't really something you should need to worry about either. It isn't your responsibility to ensure that the higher ranks are doing their job, that is part of our responsibility, and we're pretty thorough with it. If you are concerned about something or someone in particular then there are steps that we can take to address that.

 

Is there something that has you concerned right now? Is there a particular reason for why you feel it is necessary for Generals and Commanders to publicize their actions for you, and to take on the responsibility of assessing them yourself? Or is it more because you just want to know?

I think it'd be nice that they show a sign of life. We literally have no idea what they are doing, we don't know if they aren't doing anything.. I don't see why it's such a big deal to wonder what they are doing?

 

I'm going to be that person:

  • What does r.ag do other than hide in the sidelines? He works on the website, sure, but he's never made himself available and seemingly alive to us (except maybe you older people but I've been here for 2.5 years and never had a convo with him til the other day). What makes him a Commander of a COMMUNITY rather than a developer.
  • Where is Tris? What is he working on and contributing with his rank?
  • Ravemore?
  • Townkill?

We'd like to know what these people are doing since they've last been evaluated, and for some it has been AGES since an evaluation has been done.. They are seemingly gone or hiding in the sidelines, unapproachable or we don't know that we CAN approach them. These people don't appear at Admin meetings, so we don't get to hear a rundown of their actions that make them deserve their ranks still and we are left in the dark, which is wrong.

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36 minutes ago, MelodicRose(OD) said:

I think it'd be nice that they show a sign of life. We literally have no idea what they are doing, we don't know if they aren't doing anything.. I don't see why it's such a big deal to wonder what they are doing?

 

It's not a big deal. But an evaluation is a big deal. Members can ask about Generals and Commanders anytime they want, that's never been a problem. But simple questions don't require grand changes. Most of the time it just requires you to ask the question.

 

36 minutes ago, MelodicRose(OD) said:

Where is Tris? What is he working on and contributing with his rank?

 

Attend the Admin Meeting tomorrow and the situation with Tris will be explained.

 

36 minutes ago, MelodicRose(OD) said:

Ravemore?

 

Was called to write an eval this season specifically because he's been shirking his responsibilities lately.

 

36 minutes ago, MelodicRose(OD) said:

Townkill?

 

Was unfortunately detained in a secure facility for quite a while, has only recently received our "Get out of Jail Free" card and become available again.

 

36 minutes ago, MelodicRose(OD) said:

What does r.ag do other than hide in the sidelines? He works on the website, sure, but he's never made himself available and seemingly alive to us (except maybe you older people but I've been here for 2.5 years and never had a convo with him til the other day). What makes him a Commander of a COMMUNITY rather than a developer.

 

I saved R.ag for last because his case is a bit more complicated. This might be a bit redundant after his evaluation but Rag is our back-end, he talks to those who come to talk to him but his work and lifestyle don't leave enough extra time for him to come socialize regularly. In the past most Commanders who have gotten to the point where he is have chosen that time to retire, but Rag has instead stayed on to continue supporting OD for many many years despite that, and as he stated in his evaluation he's chosen to take on the role of a non-partisan observer over most decisions and discussions, which is easier for him given his situation.

 

But as for what he does, he's our primary protection against website and server-related attacks or problems. If the server goes down then he's the one who gets it back up. If our entire Forum is wiped out through some crazy happenstance then he's the one who restores it from the back-ups he's been regularly keeping. We have a shoutbox on the forum again because of him.

He also manages OD's finances, so any money that OD receives is used by him to pay for everything we have, managing our bills as it were, or for any other ventures we may try to use OD money for. And lastly he manages our coding team, testing and assessing anyone interested in becoming a coder for OD, providing them with a dummy website to practice their changes on, and screening the changes they make before implementing them on the real website. Currently he also seems to have decided that he's very interested in testing Discord's viability as a main voice chat for OD, but we'll see where that goes.

 

OD gets attacked a lot. A pretty stupid amount actually. But the reason the rest of us can continue playing games, running Divisions, and holding meetings in peace, the reason our biggest problem is always what to change in the Clan instead of how to keep this whole thing from falling apart, is because of what he does on the back-end. It makes him unusual compare to your mainstream Commanders, but an undeniably important role that we depend on for this community to work. And though it is easy to get distressed at him for not being around more, and not giving more to the Clan, the truth is we are pretty lucky that he has still been there to do the things that he already does.

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Hello, I am Atrayas and am a recent recruit of Clan OD.  After reading through this I thought I should share some of my thoughts and maybe help enlighten people to a few truths.  First of all some of you may be saying, who is this person, he isn't qualified to give advice on leadership.  Well to answer that question I'll give a quick background on myself.  I have lead very successful guilds/clans in the past across multiple gaming platforms.  I joined and climbed the ranks of a fairly large d2 clan back in 08 to become the sole leader after all other leaders decided to retire and held that clan together solo for over a year before it finally fizzled out.  In real life I am a supervisor responsible for 83 real people on a daily basis.  I lead the most successful team in our region in terms of morale, productivity and budget.

 

So on to why I wanted to post here in the first place.  I think people questioning what the leaders are doing need to take a moment and just think about what is to be  a leader.  Really think hard about it.  Being a leader is someone that can be counted on, someone that people look up to, being the person that can solve the problem no one else can.  With a community of this size this requires delegation.  A good leader will solve problems daily themselves.  A great leader will choose like minded individuals to delegate these tasks to so that they may be free to do more administrative tasks within there chosen field(this case the clan).  

 

So, think about what i just wrote above.  Now imagine being a leader of 200 or so people.  It is a daunting task, even stressful at times.

 

Now you may be thinking, well they chose to rise up and lead.  Well yes they did, but are they not still human?  I think so.

 

It is in everyone's nature to question there higher ups, to scrutinize them and to wonder what exactly do they do...my employees in real life do it.  My response is generally to tell them that my job entails doing things to better the company as a whole so that they may have a job tomorrow.   I think this statement fits here as well, as without the hierarchy I have seen in this clan, you would not have a clan.  Simple as that.

 

Now with all of that said, take one more moment and think about this.  OD is a clan of 200ish members, yet with my short time here I have seen 0 drama except for this one thread here.  That in itself is an accomplishment that not many community's can make. 

 

 

Edited by Atrayas(OD)
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2 hours ago, MelodicRose(OD) said:

I think it'd be nice that they show a sign of life. We literally have no idea what they are doing, we don't know if they aren't doing anything.. I don't see why it's such a big deal to wonder what they are doing?

 

I'm going to be that person:

  • What does r.ag do other than hide in the sidelines? He works on the website, sure, but he's never made himself available and seemingly alive to us (except maybe you older people but I've been here for 2.5 years and never had a convo with him til the other day). What makes him a Commander of a COMMUNITY rather than a developer.
  • Where is Tris? What is he working on and contributing with his rank?
  • Ravemore?
  • Townkill?

We'd like to know what these people are doing since they've last been evaluated, and for some it has been AGES since an evaluation has been done.. They are seemingly gone or hiding in the sidelines, unapproachable or we don't know that we CAN approach them. These people don't appear at Admin meetings, so we don't get to hear a rundown of their actions that make them deserve their ranks still and we are left in the dark, which is wrong.

a lot of what tris does is give his mindset and opinions on topics in the generals forums which for some crazy reason that i cant think of(.....) you cant see

as for rag have you ever tried to contact him he literally will answer anyone that messages him about anything he doesn't care what your topic or question is but you have to reach out

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@Atrayas(OD) had some excellent points.  Leadership in anything involves more than one would expect in one aspect or another.  However, I think that if lower ranking members feel that the higher ranking members are unapproachable, cannot be approached, or have no idea how to get in touch with them.... That is a failure in the leadership.

 

Before everyone gets their torches and pitchforks for that one, we need to look closer and see where the failure is.  Somewhere in the chain of command, someone is failing to properly inform their lower ranking members within the clan, division, squad, etc on these things.  That person or persons failure is leading to more and more cases like this.  This issue does not solely ride on the shoulders of the lower enlisted Terra, this blame falls on all sides.

 

That being said, I think based on how this thread has progressed the commanders should ensure that lower ranking members are being properly informed about approaching higher ranking members in the clan.  Since we know how to do it, it's a problem easily overlooked .  But if they don't because commanders appear unapproachable, that's on you guys to try and work out how to appear in a better light to your lower ranking members so that will no longer be the case.  If it's that lower ranking members don't think they can contact you because they never see you, they should be educated on what the best way to contact you is, and their chain should be handling that.

 

Where the failure is exists somewhere in the chain, you all just need to find out where.

 

 

Edited by Sarnith
Phone auto correct is horrible
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3 hours ago, Sarnith said:

That being said, I think based on how this thread has progressed the commanders should ensure that lower ranking members are being properly informed about approaching higher ranking members in the clan.  Since we know how to do it, it's a problem easily overlooked .  But if they don't because commanders appear unapproachable, that's on you guys to try and work out how to appear in a better light to your lower ranking members so that will no longer be the case.  If it's that lower ranking members don't think they can contact you because they never see you, they should be educated on what the best way to contact you is, and their chain should be handling that.

 

Where the failure is exists somewhere in the chain, you all just need to find out where.

 

The following message was sent less then 3 months ago. I send a message like this usually about once a year. I also bring it up 2-3 times a year in our admin meetings as well bringing up in a less official manner with those that I correspond with more often.

 

OD Leadership

Hello all,

I hope you all had a good week and have an even better weekend planned ahead.

I just wanted to take a moment to remind many of our members about OD leadership in general. 

The leaders of OD are here to enhance your gaming experience. To this day, that is still our purpose. We, as leaders, are not here to throw our weight around. We are not here to be bossy. We are not here to belittle you or to control you. Again, we are here to enhance everyone's gaming experience. If not directly then by enabling those who can. 

Granted, there are times where people have to condemn certain actions or punish those who break our rules. However, this is in the common good for the clan and in general this is a much smaller aspect as our roles as leaders in this community. Leadership is here to enable members. We are there to give them the tools, the guidance and support to do the things they want to do in this community. It is important that all of you whether you're a new recruit or a general, the leadership above you is there to help. 

All of this being said, I implore all if you who have concerns, ideas, suggestions, problems to seek out leadership for help. it doesn't have to be your direct superior, doesn't have to be someone in your division and it doesn't have to be me. But know that the leaders in this clan - are leaders because of their love/dedication to this clan and want the best for it. 

Furthermore, please remember that not every leader has the same set of skills as everyone else. You may want to talk to one person about starting a division or someone else about a personal issue or maybe someone else about a rule. Please keep this in mind, especially if you feel as though a leader has been unable to help you in a way that you're looking. Chance are someone might have more experience with what you're looking for. If you ask them bluntly, they might even suggest a better person to talk to. 

TLDR: Leadership is here to help. If you have ideas/concerns/suggestions you should feel free to bring them up because we all want what's best for the clan.

Tris(OD)

 

 

If this is not the type of interaction you're looking for can you help enlighten me and the rest of leadership what it is you're looking for exactly and maybe we can accommodate or at least reach an undertanding. 

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5 hours ago, Tris(OD) said:

If this is not the type of interaction you're looking for can you help enlighten me and the rest of leadership what it is you're looking for exactly and maybe we can accommodate or at least reach an undertanding. 

Well, since many members don't seem to check their mail (this is apparently an issue alongside DSL), possible solutions include but of course are not limited to:

1.  Reinforce standing policies for new recruits to be educated on how to contact higher ranking officers of they have such questions.

2.  Encourage current leaders to stay further in touch with those under them.  Building a decent relationship makes moments of tension easier to handle.

3.  Reach out to others in different divisions and squads, not just your own.  Sometimes stopping by and saying a simple hello to someone can make all the difference.

4.  Instead of just holding admin meetings, general, meetings, etc.  Hold more informal meetings so that you as leaders can reach out easier and more often to those of lower rank.

 

There are more than this, but it's a good start none the less.  These are also tried and true methods in not only other clans, but the business world as well.  At the end of the day this sending a message thing is to impersonal for quite a few people of would seem.  Now is a good time to shift to a more personal approach of communication.  It's not that the leadership is doing nothing,  it's simply that the current way of doing things is no longer working for everyone.

 

Hope these help, as they're only a start.  And for those reading this remember, the leadership is doing what they can to keep things going well, try to be constructive and not so aggressive :)

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Members should be checking the website as they log in. If they are not this isn't leaderships fault if they want to stay in the loop they will check messages. We cannot spoon feed it to everyone.

 In any division I have been a part of the generals always go out of their way to introduce themselves to the new recruits the proof is right on the introductions post of the forums. Many of the leaders saying if you ever need anything give me a shout.

I do agree more people could be more proactive in stopping by other divisions to say hello.

We have the community meetings in which most of the commanders and generals attend as well. It is solely for the community and has nothing to do with administration.

 

So I still believe that this is not where the problem lies. It is just making it more apparent to me that we are doing things to reach out to the community. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot force it to drink.

 

Could either one of you clarify what rank you noticed this problem at? Was it when you first joined or has it grown into something more apparent as you have risen in rank? I just have yet to really see an example with the exception of what Rose mentioned in which Terra was spot on with her reply.

 

So maybe it wasn't as big of an issue as what was presented. Was it perhaps just one person the lack of activity was by?

Edited by Dabomb(OD)

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There's plenty of should be' s @Dabomb(OD) but you know as well as I do there are plenty of people that people don't do things unless it's force fed for the most part.  I am however, trying to focus on the side of things we can do, we can fix.  

 

So the question now is, if people are just going to refuse to check their mail, or even log in in some cases, why have that part of the process at All?  Well, it's been a standard part of OD for a long time.  So what do we do about it?  Do you give the chain a tug and remind people that it's a standard?  Or do you as leaders make a concession that helps bridge the gap?

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1 hour ago, Sarnith said:

1.  Reinforce standing policies for new recruits to be educated on how to contact higher ranking officers of they have such questions.

 

1. 2 meetings ago I reminded all division leaders that they need to be pushing their "Welcome to xxxxx division" forum thread. This thread is used to educate all members on the division about critical things such as who and how to contact division leaders and is to be used in the recruiting process. From what I have seen, divisions have abide.

 

1 hour ago, Sarnith said:

2.  Encourage current leaders to stay further in touch with those under them.  Building a decent relationship makes moments of tension easier to handle.

2. This is basically one of the biggest criteria in which we promote people by. We let members spill their guts on their thoughts of members before the generals even vote on the promotion of generals. In fact, we take what members say about their leaders as some of the most important feedback in terms of their success as a leader. Furthermore, we have told people time and time again that recruiting goes well beyond signing people onto the website. You have to be a mentor for them throughout their entire stay in OD and that it's not just limited to those who are 'leaders'.

 

1 hour ago, Sarnith said:

3.  Reach out to others in different divisions and squads, not just your own.  Sometimes stopping by and saying a simple hello to someone can make all the difference.

3. I'm not sure about this one. It seems like a legit thing to do but some aspects do not seem reasonable. I could spend 1 hour every night trying to reach out to members and I'd barely scratch the surface and I'd be using an immense amount of my time to do this. Want me to use less then an hour with members? Then we get further away from the 'personal' touch you are looking for. Realistically, those members will always go to those they trust the most. Having been that person for the majority of the clan for a year or two back in 2012-2014, I will tell you that this is not a fun role. It is very taxing and ultimately drives leaders away from fulfilling those roles. If you're a Commander who goes out of your way to open the door to every single member, you will be opening the flood gates for them to talk to you about every single issue that they ever have and most of those issues are things that a Commander (from another division) should not be answering to. The hierarchy is built so that way people have a manageable amount of people they can take care of whilst still getting their own work (and gaming) done. 

 

1 hour ago, Sarnith said:

4.  Instead of just holding admin meetings, general, meetings, etc.  Hold more informal meetings so that you as leaders can reach out easier and more often to those of lower rank.

 

4. We have moved in this direction already. They used to be Generals meetings, then they were officer meetings, now they are admin meetings whereas just about anyone who wants to come, can. Admins are allowed to bring guests (and most will if you ask them) and the term 'admin' is pretty loose. There have also already been 'open clan meetings' but there was no overwhelming support for them.

 

1 hour ago, Sarnith said:

There are more than this, but it's a good start none the less.  These are also tried and true methods in not only other clans, but the business world as well.  At the end of the day this sending a message thing is to impersonal for quite a few people of would seem.  Now is a good time to shift to a more personal approach of communication.  It's not that the leadership is doing nothing,  it's simply that the current way of doing things is no longer working for everyone.

To say that this approach is 'no longer working for everyone' is somewhat misleading. This approach never worked for 'everyone'. No approach will ever work for 'everyone'. However, this clan is now the biggest it's ever been. It makes sense that that the Commanders specifically are not giving as much face time to each individual member. But we as a clan must be doing something right to be where we are today. given the sentiment of Commanders and higher level generals who have shared their thoughts of being burned out, I don't think asking them to stretch themselves more thinly is the answer. The simple answer would be to get more! However, given the rigorous standards that we set for ourselves as well as the open door that we give everyone into our jobs, the General roles are either not sought out or people do not meet the requirements we set for them. 

 

Look, I know that this response is probably very negative and it may come off as me 'attacking you.' I have been around the block a time or two. I saw where it used to be. I see the progress this clan has made in the last 7 years. I do agree, we should always push forward and always try and do better. However, the Generals and Commanders we have... They are like family to me at this point. I see what they do for this clan. I see how hard they work. I see what they have done to get us where we are today. They are some of the greatest and most hard working people I have ever met and have a lot of great experience and knowledge that this clan can benefit from. It pains me to see when people say they don't do enough because I already have sympathy for many of them. People are trying to get water out of a rock. 

 

I have seen this road before. It's a dark road. I'm not saying we should never change. We have before. We have paid the consequences for it. We will do it again. I hope it can be done more gracefully then last. Tread carefully. I just don't want to see some of the hardest workers in the clan see this type of thing and get discouraged that they are not doing enough and give up because some of them will take it this way. 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Upvote 2

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@Tris(OD) I would like to start off by saying thanks for the in depth reply, and say no I don't think you're attacking me.  This is a very constructive discussion that I sincerely hope all reading or keeping up with are taking something from.

 

I certainly hope this discussion hasn't discouraged people in a way that makes them feel useless.

 

As for recruiters staying on with their recruits... that does not happen often.  I hear often in teamspeak how so n so hasn't heard from their recruiter in months, weeks... 

 

Something to bear in mind though is that you work with the other generals and commanders on a regular basis.  By contrast were the creepy neighbors up the hill.  Sure we can come over and ask hey how's it going?  But a majority of the lower enlisted seem to feel it's hard to get in touch with commanders, or even generals.  "Hey I'm looking for so n so" -> "ah, goodluck they never seem to be around" 

 

that exchange should never occur, and yet it does. It's actually one of the reasons I've been so hell bent on targeting what i perceive as an issue of communication between the leadership and lower enlisted.

 

Now, that being said I can understand being the guy people come to.  And asking one person to take it all on is impractical, as I found myself quickly overwhelmed because of it.  However, as a team with you all making strides in this it will spread.  Especially if the junior leadership beneath you follows this example.

 

Change is hard on everyone,  regardless of size and function.  And not all change is good.  We should just try to keep an open mind on these things, and perhaps some responses in this thread should be written in less aggressive ways.  Even if a conversation begins with aggression it doesn't have to be met with it in kind.

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But Tris has a good point when he says that the hierarchy is built to spread out the work load. You keep talking about making Commanders more available to more people, but a member shouldn't need to go to a Commander as their first choice to begin with, if there is a problem in their Division then they should go to their Division Leader. If their Division Leader has a problem, or is the problem, then they should speak to a ranking General. Many of us Commanders actually are approachable anytime and the ladder system can be skipped anyway, much as it probably shouldn't be, but even for those that aren't, all Generals and Division Leaders know how to get in touch with any Commander and can easily pass along concerns from any member onto us.

 

Granted this method is probably what led to this belief that Commanders don't do anything, and resulted in the creation of this topic. But the system is important nonetheless. It isn't just important for making sure workload is spread evenly throughout the community, but it's important in order to give Division Leaders and Generals the opportunity to be good leaders, to improve, and to demonstrate what they can do to make them viable candidates for the next rank up when they decide to aim for it. It also helps build the trust members have in them and their ability to resolve issues so that these members don't feel like they need a Commander to solve every problem.

 

So if it is a question of Commanders being available to help people with problems, then the hierarchy system is much better overall at handling it, and they should instead go to the appropriate person responsible for the aspect of the Clan that they are in, or had the problem in. If it is a question of Commanders being available simply to talk with everyone and get to know them on a personal level, then as Tris said that just isn't feasible.

 

Many of us have certain circles in which we are more involved in than others, but 5 Commanders divided among 372 members, you crunch those numbers and the only thing you're gonna get is a sad panda every time.

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An excellent point Terra.  We should be going up the chain of.command, not start at the top.  But, the issue I'm addressing is more focused on tackling at this current conjecture is the appearance that commanders are either unapproachable, or that they don't do anything.  While these are misunderstandings at their core, I still feel that we [rather you all as I am a lower enlisted myself], should see what would be bridges can built to meet them half way.  

 

I would like to point out as @Dabomb(OD) did earlier, there's only so much you can do to combat an issue on your side of it. And the leadership is not doing nothong, as @Tris(OD) pointed out several things the leadership is already doing to make some changes in that direction.  Hopefully our continued discussion in this matter has answered so many of the various questions people have had no matter how simple or complex they may have been.

 

As for taking issues up with your local chain first, that's an issue that has plagued OD for years.  I dont know why people refuse to handle issues at the lowest possible level, but it's honestly the best way to use people's time.  Why involve a community admin in a simple in game dispute that would take a junior officer a couple minutes to deal with.  It's hard for the leadership to get things done of they're being poked a thousand times over minor squabbles that their respective squads or divisions should be dealing with - so quit taking things up the chain that don't need to be!

-end rant.

 

Sorry as a retired soldier that bothers me haha.

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Well, we will continue to look for ways to improve it, and as Tris mentioned we have gone to great lengths to try and improve it already. Suggestions are welcome, and even though we may not necessarily be able to take on the suggestions you have given here, I'm glad you made them nonetheless.

 

Unfortunately no matter how good we make the system I don't think that it will ever erase people's doubts altogether. We need the hierarchy system to function, and as long as the hierarchy system exists there are inevitably going to be those lower in the chain who don't see all or any of what those at the top do. If someone wants to make a topic about it every once and a while then they certainly can do so, and we'll address it if it helps, although if they are going to get cheeky about it then they best prepare for it to become a red cheek from Terra's back-hand. My tough love is the toughest.

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I can't be bothered to scroll up. Atreyu?? You know that name that reminds you of the kid who rode falkor in that other neverending story sure seems to have quite a future here. To those wondering why darkhelmet may have made this post in the first place, I almost doubt your still reading this, if you are I owe you a beer. Those still reading knowing why this post was made, still unhappy by this posts direction or results, or refusing to publicly and realistically explain your intentions let me just say this and think it through. We're all waiving, and we see you, and for most of us, we are still awaiting your participation in probably the biggest eval period of your next three years. If we still see you three years from now that is.

 

Those of you actually participating, thank you, and those not just posting back and forth for funs, are you not at least entertained? As it gets put to me from time to time...

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