DarkHelmet

Intel Coffee Lake announcement

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https://www.anandtech.com/show/11869/intel-announces-8th-generation-coffee-lake-hex-core-desktop-processors

 

Thoughts on the article and the specs on the latest series of chips slated to come out next month with the high end slated to have 40 3.0 PCIe Lanes. Not to mention another motherboard chipset or the 370... They sacrificed Frequency in order to keep the TDP down so I'm beginning to wonder if they're truly that much better than the 7700 they released earlier this year. Odds are I might just wait until Cannonlake or their first 10nm chip hits the market next year(provided they don't push it back again) along with the Volta GPU that NVidia will be releasing next year as well. Alas DDR5 RAM won't be out any time soon.

 

Also before anyone says it, I know that if I keep waiting I'll never get a new rig but honestly waiting can pay off in the long run as I want to squeeze what I can out of these ancient rigs(coming up on 10 years now lol). Granted if the rigs finally die that will force my hand but until they do, I'm perfectly capable of waiting.

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8700 vs 7700 comparison

 

Above link compares 8700, 8700K with their 7700 counterparts. From what I can tell, there isn't much of an improvement, if any, other than a higher ceiling in terms of max Frequency(Base Frequency is in 7700's favor) and a better native RAM support on the 8700's(DDR-2666 as opposed to DDR-2133/2400). Both have integrated GFX(with 8700 series having modest improvement) and both are limited to 16 PCI lanes(which for a 6 core processor in the 8700 is unfortunate. I7-6850 takes a giant crap on it in that regard).

 

For a next generation CPU, this is an unmitigated fail in my book.

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In my honest opinion, the coffee lake generation of processors are what intel should've released when AMD released the Ryzen line... Basically Intel was caught with their pants down, and now are trying to make up for it with increased core counts... Ryzen is great for multi-threaded applications, but intel has the better core design and better performance per core. (multi-tasking = Ryzen, Gaming only = Intel). Intel really screwed the pooch when they reduced the pci-e lanes available, and time will tell if they have learned from their mistake...

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19 minutes ago, CompFreak(OD) said:

In my honest opinion, the coffee lake generation of processors are what intel should've released when AMD released the Ryzen line... Basically Intel was caught with their pants down, and now are trying to make up for it with increased core counts... Ryzen is great for multi-threaded applications, but intel has the better core design and better performance per core. (multi-tasking = Ryzen, Gaming only = Intel). Intel really screwed the pooch when they reduced the pci-e lanes available, and time will tell if they have learned from their mistake...

I have to agree here except that for right now, the Ryzen is the best gaming CPU until they've had a chance to review/test the new CoffeeLake chips. The success of the Ryzen has also forced Intel to price them not that far above their previous generation despite them being roughly 30% more costly to produce than their Kaby-Lake predecessors(meaning they're eating some of their profit margin in the hopes of trying to fend off AMD). My hope is that people don't fall for it and continue to ignore Intel until they come up with something that blows AMD out of the water.

 

As much as it pains me to say this but if I had to build a gaming rig right now, I'd probably go with a Ryzen CPU. Not only is it a decent CPU, the cost also makes it favorable.

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I am definitely inclined to agree with you, that Ryzen is a great gaming chip AT THIS TIME... However, given AMD's separation and length of time between refreshes and new technologies, even I have been swayed to the intel side recently... My current main rig was originally an FX-6100, which I later upgraded to an FX-8350 (which when OC'd to 5ghz, was quite comparable to an i5-6500k stock speeds)...And then pci 3.0 came out, along with USB 3.1, increased pci-e lanes, etc. AMD released newer processors since then (such as the fx-9000 series, which were just factory oc'd 8350's), but refused to change with the times and newer technologies, which really made me "lose faith" in AMD, and so I switched to an Intel i7-6850k(a broadwell-e chip with 40 pci lanes), and have not been disappointed with it yet. When Intel dropped the number of pci lanes with kaby lake, they lost HUGE points in my book, because when you add up all the devices that need to process data (graphics cards - 16 lanes [each], m.2 ssd's - 4 lanes [each], hdd's / ssd's = 1 or 2 lanes each), it adds up pretty quickly!

 

That said, yes, it seems that AMD's Ryzen line is both cost effective and performs well, but the real question here, is whether or not one should invest in AMD right now, rather than intel? To answer this, we would need more information (what you intend to do with the rig, how long you expect it to be viable, etc.), but for now, Ryzen seems to be what to get for those that can't wait for intel to get their heads outta their asses...:thumbsup:

Edited by CompFreak(OD)

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Been reading more about Cannon Lake or the 10nm lithography shrink that has been delayed several times by Intel(had they kept to their schedule, it would have been out by now). Due to the delays, Apple and other computer manufacturers may opt to forego using the Cannonlake chips in favor of Ice Lake or the next CPU in the 10nm series. Namely Cannon Lake is the Tick(die shrink), Ice Lake is the Tack(architecture improvement) and Tiger Lake is the Tock(further refinement, generating more efficiency).

 

If all things go according to plan, I aim to build a new computer with a Cannon Lake CPU(unless an unexpected expense comes or my computers die before they're available). If an unexpected expense comes, I'll have to delay until Ice Lake or perhaps even Tiger Lake(I hope not but we shall see). Due to the delays in Cannon Lake, I wouldn't be surprised if Ice Lake doesn't come until Q2 of 2019 and Tiger Lake some 6-12 months later. Meaning by the time DDR5 RAM comes out, Intel will have exhausted the 10nm lithography and be looking to go even smaller. I just wonder if there is a limit to this due to the Laws of Physics... It'd explain why they're having such an issue with Cannonlake. To expect them to go even smaller... is a tough task.

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https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/10/intel-coffee-lake-8700k-review/

 

Latest review of the CoffeeLake chip and TLDR: Decent chip, but not a whole lot of improvement over its Kaby Lake predecessor. Biggest knock is that it runs hot and the thermal compound Intel used was frankly substandard. Meaning if you intend to overclock it, you’ll have to improve cooling and maybe even delid. 16 PCIe Lanes was also a knock on it too.

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3 minutes ago, DarkHelmet said:

Decent chip, but not a whole lot of improvement over its Kaby Lake predecessor. Biggest knock is that it runs hot and the thermal compound Intel used was frankly substandard. Meaning if you intend to overclock it, you’ll have to improve cooling and maybe even delid. 16 PCIe Lanes was also a knock on it too.

 

... So they didn't learn... lol! I guess we'll just have to wait to see what they do with their next generation... I guess they'll learn when people stop buying intel!

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4 hours ago, CompFreak(OD) said:

 

... So they didn't learn... lol! I guess we'll just have to wait to see what they do with their next generation... I guess they'll learn when people stop buying intel!

Apparently not. According to Intel, the 7800x has more PCI Lanes(28) and has better base Frequency than 8700(8700k is slightly better with boosted being better in both cases). Big thing going for 8700 and it’s overclockable cousin is better TDP, Direct X-12 support and faster native RAM. Even has a difference between Dual and Quad Channel RAM(7800x is Quad channel).

 

Needless to say if I was building a High End platform, CoffeeLake comes up short due to PCIe Lanes. We shall see if they release a new line of high end chips like a 8800x but as I said before, I’m going to wait until CannonLake comes out sometime next year. They’ll likely have 4-4.5 GHz base Frequency with boosted pushing into the 5 GHz range, faster native RAM speeds(rumor is 3200 will be the target line) and hopefully(if Intel isn’t retarded) at least 24 PCIe Lanes. By then I’ll also have the Volta(with a $1k price tag I’d bet due to its sheer power) and other hardware(like improved 4K Monitors) to build my next computer for the next Decade.

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Bruh you've been planning you next big computer for like 2 years. lol

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Coffee Lake is significant for introducing a 6 core mainstream processor, but other than that I knew it would be disappointing. It's really not worth upgrading to unless you're using something seriously old like a 2600k or older. 


Ryzen stomps on it for value in multithreaded workloads. In terms of gaming, maybe it's all right, but cannonlake is going to demolish it when it comes out mid-late next year. But either way, people aren't going to stop buying intel. They have a very high quality standard, and still rock for per core performance.

 

@DarkHelmet Why are PCIe lanes important to you? Also, Coffeelake can already hit an easy 5.0 overclock so if that's your concern you can take that one out. PCIe lanes arent going to get higher unless you go into the higher lines because mainstream consumers cant/wont make use of them.

Edited by Terakahn

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2 hours ago, Terakahn said:

Coffee Lake is significant for introducing a 6 core mainstream processor, but other than that I knew it would be disappointing. It's really not worth upgrading to unless you're using something seriously old like a 2600k or older. 


Ryzen stomps on it for value in multithreaded workloads. In terms of gaming, maybe it's all right, but cannonlake is going to demolish it when it comes out mid-late next year. But either way, people aren't going to stop buying intel. They have a very high quality standard, and still rock for per core performance.

 

@DarkHelmet Why are PCIe lanes important to you? Also, Coffeelake can already hit an easy 5.0 overclock so if that's your concern you can take that one out. PCIe lanes arent going to get higher unless you go into the higher lines because mainstream consumers cant/wont make use of them.

PCIe Lanes matter when it comes to Hardware like GPU’s, SSD’s, Monitors and other Hardware that works best when given the most Lanes possible. GPU’s in particular should be given 16 Lanes(each) and then SSD’s 4 lanes. So a 1 GPU, 2 SSD setup would demand a 24 Lane CPU(which is what I hope a Cannon Lake hits), if not ideally 28 Lanes like the i7-6800 so that more Hardware like a backup HD can be added.

 

Its true that Coffee Lake is a six core processor, a first for base line processors but they skimped on base line speed to cut down on the Heat(it’s still an Energy/Heat hog) and lacks PCIe Lanes in favor of charging a premium for it. If AMD releases a newer chip with 28 PCIe Lanes or better, Intel might have it’s hands full.

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4 minutes ago, Collin(OD) said:

Dude.

 

Unless you're using a PCIe SSD or some crazy PCIe monitor invention, I'm not exactly sure how you're gonna be using PCIe lanes there.

 

The chipset has 24 PCIe lanes. 

 

https://ark.intel.com/products/125903/Intel-Z370-Chipset

Ahh forgot about the new chipset. In that case, yeah CoffeeLake could theoretically handle my build but I aim to wait until they shrink the Lithography in Cannonlake.

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As far as I'm aware, each SATA device uses 1 pci-e lane, each graphics card uses 16 lanes (ideally, but can work with as low as 4 lanes [single card] and 8 lanes each for SLI), and m.2 ssd's use 4 lanes. Now, to dispute whether or not having "enough" lanes for a particular build, you can run all of the above devices listed, with only 12 lanes (possibly even as low as 8), it just means that devices competing for the available lanes will have to wait for the next clock cycle before their data can be processed, resulting in reduced performance. A similar example would be when you try to play a game but run out of vram, your fps drops significantly, but it will still run... The effect is not as substantial as that example, as a 3.5ghz cpu has 3500 cycles per second, but still can make a difference between having more than enough lanes vs. not enough, maybe a 1 or 2 second delay in access times (maybe more, as I have not experimented personally). If you are looking to build a rig that runs at peak efficiency, then yes, the number of lanes will certainly make a difference of a few points in benchmarks, but in real-world experience, it is a small difference and barely noticeable in my opinion.

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Yep. You cannot tell the difference between a video card using 16x and one using 8x. 

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16 hours ago, Collin(OD) said:

Yep. You cannot tell the difference between a video card using 16x and one using 8x. 

 

Provided it is a pci 3.0 slot, yes. However, 8x on a pci 2.0 can be fully saturated quite easily by even a GTX 1050, and a difference can be witnessed between 8x and 16x using pci 2.0 slots...

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People should be buying correct motherboards in 2017. :P

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4 minutes ago, Collin(OD) said:

People should be buying correct motherboards in 2017. :P

 

HAHAHA ... AMD literally JUST switched to pci 3.0 when they released the Ryzen line, with a new socket / motherboard chipset (in 2017) :grin:

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Well yeah weren't the previous motherboards like... 6 years old?

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Yeah seriously, dont worry about lanes. Unless you're doing crazy SLI setups (Which are probably outside your budget range to even be worth it), you'll never use those lanes. I'm talking like Dual GPU, multiple SSD, captures cards, etc. It's just such a non issue. If you compare benchmarks of GPUs with x8 to x16, its almost a negligible difference.

 

Did they cut stock clock speed a bit to provide additional cores? Yeah. But look at a good overclocked 7700k vs 8700k. I remember hearing people getting a stable 4.8-4.9 out of the 7700k while the 8700k is pushing 5.2. Yeah, if you run all 6 cores it might be lower, but that's still crazy good. WAY more than you're going to need for years to come. And on top of that you're getting 4 additional threads to power through those hard computing tasks if you ever decide to do anything besides gaming on them. 

 

Quote

Ahh forgot about the new chipset. In that case, yeah CoffeeLake could theoretically handle my build but I aim to wait until they shrink the Lithography in Cannonlake.

Just out of curiousity, what is your build? There is ALWAYS something better lurking around the corner, and most of the times its not really worth waiting for, because once that comes out, you'll be wanting to wait on the next big thing they have going, and it's just an endless cycle.

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1 hour ago, Terakahn said:

Yeah seriously, dont worry about lanes. Unless you're doing crazy SLI setups (Which are probably outside your budget range to even be worth it), you'll never use those lanes. I'm talking like Dual GPU, multiple SSD, captures cards, etc. It's just such a non issue. If you compare benchmarks of GPUs with x8 to x16, its almost a negligible difference.

 

Did they cut stock clock speed a bit to provide additional cores? Yeah. But look at a good overclocked 7700k vs 8700k. I remember hearing people getting a stable 4.8-4.9 out of the 7700k while the 8700k is pushing 5.2. Yeah, if you run all 6 cores it might be lower, but that's still crazy good. WAY more than you're going to need for years to come. And on top of that you're getting 4 additional threads to power through those hard computing tasks if you ever decide to do anything besides gaming on them. 

 

Just out of curiousity, what is your build? There is ALWAYS something better lurking around the corner, and most of the times its not really worth waiting for, because once that comes out, you'll be wanting to wait on the next big thing they have going, and it's just an endless cycle.

I haven’t posted an updated build since last year when I first started researching components. Back then the 6700 series was king and the 7700 Kaby Lake hadn’t even come out yet(was still 6 months out too). I’ve already made up my mind to wait until Intel finally releases their 10nm lithography shrink in the form of Cannonlake(which will be 9700 or some weird number I would assume). Then I’d grab the latest and greatest Motherboard as the Cannonlake will probably require yet another chipset(knock on CoffeeLake is that it requires the 370 chipset, making it incompatible with older hardware and vice versa(namely you can’t take old CPU’s who might have the same socket(I believe CoffeeLake is 1151 or just like 7700 or 6700 before it) and place them in 370 Motherboards or take 8700 and place it in older Motherboards). Finally will throw in the NVidia Volta which will be going live next year as well. Probably won’t do an SLI setup and I’ll likely include 2 SSD’s(1 for OS and popular Games, other for everything else), a HDD as an Emergency backup and perhaps even a Sound Card(yeah I know those are going out of style but I might be getting some new Computer Speakers and I love listening to Music and watching Movies on my Computer). Almost forgot a new monitor(1440 and 144 HZ with GSync at bare minimum. Probably will look to see if there aren’t any 4K with better than 60 HZ) and a Headset(last one lasted 3 weeks before it broke due to my own stupidity).

 

Then there are fans, cooling(since Intel has cut corners on the heat sinks) and other hardware I’ll have to get. All told, $5k is the likely cost of this Computer. But it will be oh so worth it lol.

 

Edit*: Forgot to add ill likely be doing 32 GB of RAM. As for the speed, probably will be 3000 or 3200 or so. DDR5 RAM is still a few years away(2020 is likely debut of it).

Edited by DarkHelmet

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Seems reasonable. Motherboard sound has come a long way and a sound card is a waste of money 99.9% of the time. Spend that money on better speakers. Or if you're audio budget is good enough, get really nice passive speakers and a DAC/Amp to go with them. Audio is a whole conversation in itself though. 

 

You pretty much never want to stick with the stock CPU cooler anyway. But yeah, seems good. Depending on volta pricing I could put together a build if you want. There aren't a ton of monitor choices if you want IPS, and I don't see why you wouldn't. The monitor itself is a good 1/5th of the budget though.

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3 hours ago, Terakahn said:

Seems reasonable. Motherboard sound has come a long way and a sound card is a waste of money 99.9% of the time. Spend that money on better speakers. Or if you're audio budget is good enough, get really nice passive speakers and a DAC/Amp to go with them. Audio is a whole conversation in itself though. 

 

You pretty much never want to stick with the stock CPU cooler anyway. But yeah, seems good. Depending on volta pricing I could put together a build if you want. There aren't a ton of monitor choices if you want IPS, and I don't see why you wouldn't. The monitor itself is a good 1/5th of the budget though.

I have a 27 inch and 24 inch monitors that are in pretty good condition with these old relics. Problem is they're 1080 60 Hz without GSync or any of the recent improvements that take advantage of the sheer power that the latest and greatest video cards provide. Hence yeah 1/5th the budget will be the monitor. As for Sound Cards, I suppose you have a point but I might explore Sound Cards anyway. Might be a waste of $100(or w/e they go for these days) but I hate to not at least look.

 

Anyways, anyone have any thoughts on Coffeelake? Decent chip or yet another band-aid response to Ryzen by Intel?

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It's good, but it's a paper launch. You can't get them for a decent price -- especially the mobos. The real value is the i5-8400, but there won't be any B350 or H310 mobos until 1Q 2018. They all run hot. I wouldn't bother trying to overclock the 8700k unless you de-lid or have a 280mm closed liquid cooler.

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