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For Terra and anyone of the Female gender

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https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/20753457618#post-1

 

First thing that came to mind was something from IA regarding their BWES and you Terra so when I saw this, I was like... really? Figure I'd share it in the event you or anyone else who is Female(Males need not apply) to give Starcraft 2 a go. Maybe we can go give OD some representation and go kick some "Robonia" ass :p

 

 

PS: Futurama is such an underrated show lol.

  • Upvote 2

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Good for her! the world needs to stop hate and love a little more.

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Not only am I glad that the Koreans are getting beat in starcraft, but more importantly, this is a great story to bring awareness to a community of people that are often misrepresented. Great story IMO.

 

P.S. I'm not racist against Koreans, but they win so many gaming tournaments. It's nice to see a different ethnic group win for once, because it's quite rare nowadays.

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Yeah I knew about Scarlett but judging from the topic I linked, very few Female gamers(at least those willing to come out in the open). Scarlett(and those going the Coilette route) are a rare sight too. Male dominated is a foregone conclusion on any ESport.

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I don't think so. In terms of women looking for an all-female community then that's fine if they are more comfortable in that kind of environment. But although I'll always appreciate some additional feminine qualities to any community, I don't need to shut myself away from the guys. I'm perfectly accustomed to male-dominated social and gamer groups, and in fact I was around during the mainstream eras of Starcraft 1 when the girl to guy ratio was like 1:10000, and simply being a girl drew an adorable but sad amount of attention from many guys.

 

Starcraft has nothing to do with gender. Or the gender you identify as, in the case of Scarlett. All that matters is how well you play the game.

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One could argue the same for sports, but women simply can't physically compete with men. There are fundamental differences that make it really hard to bridge the gap. If you remove the physical aspect and move into mind games, I'm not sure we have a big enough, or mature enough, esport that can represent any significant differences that would necessitate having a women's league. But the question does remain: if you take the best of the best of both genders and pit them against each other, who will statistically come out on top most often?

 

The point of a women's competitions is to allow them to compete in a league of their highest capable level. In sports, if you had an all gender swimming competition, only men would win. Ever. When you split the sport by gender, now you can see the best of the best of both genders; seeing the physical limits of our different body types.

 

When you start introducing non-binary genders into a competition that meant to test the capable limit of the physical sex, it muddles the reason we have separate tournaments in the first place. Regardless of what mental gender they are, their physical sex is concrete. And we haven't even started talking about the drugs for transitioning. 

 

I'm all for accepting transgender, it just starts getting a little weird when it comes into the context of competition.

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In terms of physical sports, I would agree. Regardless of our preferential mentalities there is unquestionably physical differences between men and women that no amount of drugs or surgical alterations are going to change. These differences don't apply in esports games, but they do apply in real-world sports. Accepting transgender individuals as a part of society and recognizing their preferences is a noble thing, but as much as I do love having a good argument with you, in this I have to completely agree with you. The physical sex remains concrete, and whether people like it or not the reality is there are differences between the sexes that must be taken into account.

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On 5/11/2017 at 2:09 PM, Terra said:

In terms of physical sports, I would agree. Regardless of our preferential mentalities there is unquestionably physical differences between men and women that no amount of drugs or surgical alterations are going to change. These differences don't apply in esports games, but they do apply in real-world sports. Accepting transgender individuals as a part of society and recognizing their preferences is a noble thing, but as much as I do love having a good argument with you, in this I have to completely agree with you. The physical sex remains concrete, and whether people like it or not the reality is there are differences between the sexes that must be taken into account.

 

I find it hard to believe that if there's a physical difference between sexes, there would be no difference in mental ability. Nothing in biology is "fair" or "equal".

 

I would never say one is better than the other, but that one might be more suited to one skill than another. At the highest level of play, all else being equal, who would dominate RTS, FPS, or MOBA games? What about card games?

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There almost certainly is a natural difference in mental strengths and acuity as well, but there are two differences from the physical body. The first is the scope of other factors that can affect it. In terms of how they function, our physical bodies are all pretty much identical to others of the same sex. Sure, someone who works out is going to develop a more fit body than someone who sits around eating $100,000 cheetos, but this is a result of how we treat our bodies, and in essence all of our bodies react similarly under the same habits and treatments. Therefore, all women have more or less the same "playing field" as other women, and all men have more or less the same as other men in terms of physical feats, because under the same conditions the differences in our physical bodies is within a relatively small scope to those of the same gender. There are the occasional exceptions, of course, but on average two women who follow the same habits and regimens will develop similar physical abilities. This smaller scope in variance makes it nearly impossible to bridge the gap between physical genetic differences between genders themselves.

The same can't be said for the mental side of things, though. So many factors influence our mental development over the course of our lifespan, and the variance in mental acumen can be so considerable between individuals regardless of gender, that the effects of any natural genetic differences between genders become pretty much negligible in the scope of all the other differences that can also affect it. There is no definitive distinguishable advantage that one gender has over the other, and any subtle differences are easily overcome or compensated for by mental developments in other areas.

 

The second major difference is the process involved in obtaining victory between most physical feats in Olympic competitions, and those of esports. If you're in a race, then the primary factor that determines whether you win is how fast you can run. If you're lifting weights, then victory depends on how strong you are. There isn't really any flexibility in terms of what leads to success. You're either the fastest, or you're not. You're either the strongest, or you're not. Therefore there isn't really any way to compensate for someone being faster or stronger than you. In esports like Starcraft, however, victory can be achieved through a multitude of different strategies and judgements. After all, the true test of mentality is in a person's ability to *devise* a winning strategy, not just shoot for it.

So perhaps on average men tend to play more aggressively than women in esports games, but with the right strategy and circumstance this can easily be an advantageous form of playing. On the other hand, perhaps on average women tend to play more patiently and reserved, but once again devising tactics that play to the strengths of this strategy can also be very successful. So even if there are differences in the intellectual properties between genders, the fact that those differences don't necessarily translate to an advantage is probably another reason for why those differences have never become so apparent.

 

Although actual physical sports like Hockey and Football do involve more smarts and strategy than simple weight-lifting, overall physical sports are governed by much more strict and straightforward rules because at the end of the day they are, in essence, about the physical prowess of the players. Which is probably for the best since most physical sports tend to result in crippling deficiencies to the mental faculties of their players.

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http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0032238

 

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Silvia_Von_kluge/publication/21746346_Trading_accuracy_for_speed_Gender_differences_on_a_Stroop_task_under_mild_performance_anxiety/links/0fcfd50f7200e2aa1a000000.pdf

 

These are good examples of basic differences that easily apply themselves to video games. Games like Counter Strike favor highly accurate fine-motor coordination, faster object recognition and auditory cues. Starcraft would favor pattern recognition, strategic adaptation, and, at very high levels of play, fine-motor coordination. There are plenty of studies that show men and women have basic differences in these categories, sometimes even varying by pre or post ovulation.

 

I think it's naive to say that the difference is negligible. What might be difficult to sort out right now, though, is that socially it's still not acceptable for women to do or pursue certain things. That leads simply to a lack of participants to pull data from.

Edited by SnowWhite

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Well, as I mentioned before, there almost certainly are differences, so it isn't surprising that these studies would indicate as much. But there is a very significant leap between guessing the trajectory and colour of a ball and all the mechanics involved in an esport game, even one like Counter Strike, and the studies you provided just don't have enough information to indicate how much these cognitive differences actually make for an advantage or disadvantage in modern game-play. In truth, the studies are inadmissible as evidence to suggest an advantage in esport gaming. It's easy to draw a line from those reports to gaming and say "This proves men are more adept at judging trajectory, which would give them an advantage in shooter games", and that might seem logical, but it's actually just as easy to draw a line from the games back to the experiments themselves and say "Men who play shooter games are more adept at judging trajectories".

And in fact there have also been studies indicating that playing games does train the mind and improve our mental acuity, including the very traits you mention.

 

http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/amp-a0034857.pdf

 

The only definitive way to compare gender differences in games is to run trials between numerous men and women who both have extensive experience in a particular genre of game, or who both have none. And that's hard to find right now, because the era of female gamers is still pretty new, and there are not many games that men and women as a whole share an equal interest in. There just isn't enough information available to judge yet.

 

But I'm going to stick to my guns and say that, while there are undoubtedly differences, I believe the differences are minimal compare to the other factors involved in developing mental skills and in what is involved in winning a game.

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ROFLMAO.... I'll refrain from commenting on it until I get the entire story on that. Something tells me that there is more to this than what has been reported.

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You mean that Ideological Echo Chamber memo? You weren't paying attention to me anymore so I decided to go start a fight with Google and half the world instead.

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On 8/13/2017 at 11:25 AM, Terra said:

You mean that Ideological Echo Chamber memo? You weren't paying attention to me anymore so I decided to go start a fight with Google and half the world instead.

 

Sounds like a fair equivalent AND an even match :D

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Hopefully this isn't too late ; )

 

I knew I could find controversy, and I didn't even have to look far. DH and Terra to the rescue.

 

So there's been argument as to whether or not it's fair for a MtF transgender to compete against another woman right? Is that to say that gender is somewhat of a spectrum? 

 

If you took it on a scale of 1-10. 1 being male, and 10 being female, then a transgender female with higher physical capabilities from being a man would rate somewhere in the 6-8 range. But a naturally born female is always a 10 regardless of appearance. And not being a 10 on this arbitrary made of spectrum of mine, is what females find offensive. They're pure females, not some mixed breed. Some would argue that females have an inherent mental advantage because men spent their days doing more physical things, and women honed things like reading body language and how to decipher social cues. Which could ultimately create a better ability for pattern recognition in a game. Though that might be stretching it.

Edited by Terakahn

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A lot of the problem with society on a whole is that it is more emotionally driven than logically driven. Science says the transgenders get an advantage, but facts or not many people will still disparage it as discrimination and a lack of acceptance of people. For these reasons society can be really difficult to deal with and reason with.

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On 5/11/2017 at 5:09 PM, Terra said:

In terms of physical sports, I would agree. Regardless of our preferential mentalities there is unquestionably physical differences between men and women that no amount of drugs or surgical alterations are going to change. These differences don't apply in esports games, but they do apply in real-world sports. Accepting transgender individuals as a part of society and recognizing their preferences is a noble thing, but as much as I do love having a good argument with you, in this I have to completely agree with you. The physical sex remains concrete, and whether people like it or not the reality is there are differences between the sexes that must be taken into account.

You have it right on most of this, however, I would disagree that it doesn't count in esports, simply for the fact that is scientifically proven that men and women's brains work differently and this can affect dexterity, hand eye coordination, reaction time, etc, etc. Also with a lower muscle mass or a larger muscle mass this can play a difference as well. As a past WCG, WGT, PGT Contender, EVERYTHING matters and reducing those times depend on so many factors. I am glad that a woman is making headlines in the gaming community, as it should be, but much of the reason why it isn't most times is because gaming has a somewhat small community regarding female players. (This is slowly fading away though)

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Personally I don't think gender, race, or age make a bit of difference when gaming.  Intelligence spans the entire spectrum.  When you enjoy doing something, you try to excel.  

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On 2/19/2018 at 4:09 PM, Purplez(OD) said:

Personally I don't think gender, race, or age make a bit of difference when gaming.  Intelligence spans the entire spectrum.  When you enjoy doing something, you try to excel.  

Technically no, but each person has their own differences and challenges that they must adapt and work around in order to play competitively. For women this can be more difficult, due to in some respects that the gaming world is dominated by male players. I don't feel like women should play in their own league though as many South Korean E sports try to do. There are many talented female gamers that are on the same level if not better than their male counterparts. I was simply trying to exclaim that I feel the differences in male and female brain activity play a huge part in how they play a video game. It all just depends on how each player compartmentalizes each task in a video game. For games like RTS (Starcraft is my example) Dexterity is just as important as the person's intellect, this is most likely why Koreans are in the leader-boards for games of this caliber. This is why age also plays a factor, because most players slow down. (I myself am not nearly as fast as I used to be when I was 19 and I'm only 28 now.) I used to rank B6 - B1 on starcraft tournaments, but now I would be lucky to make rank C. (If you're not familiar with these rankings, then you've probably never played WGT or PGT lol) I have played with multiple American and European players on Starcraft and while they are solid players tactically and strategically, they simply didn't have the speed as their Korean competitors. Whenever you watch Esports on television you most times see younger players who win (16-25). It's not impossible for someone older to win, it's just more difficult. Keep in mind this can all be improved by repetition and practice, however, most countries outside South Korea don't view video games like a sport in which you must constantly practice for like the Olympics.

I imagine this is true for various other games, especially ones that require strong attention to detail in a timed situation.

This is possibly one of the reasons why OD is very under competitive and has no real competitive platform in order for players who want to compete in national or international tournaments. 

Edited by Links(OD)

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I stand by my earlier comment.  Gender makes no difference in gaming.  A study completed in 2016 by Live Science backs up this statement.  

 

The stereotype that women are inferior gamers is not only false, but could also make women more easily discouraged and less likely to play in the first place. Of course, this gender performance stereotype exists in a number of other contexts. In the software development community GitHub, for example, women are perceived as worse coders than men.

 

https://www.livescience.com/55322-are-guys-better-gamers.html

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As a woman whose hobby is beating up men in games, I remain somewhat skeptical of their supposed advantages.

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